Adjudicating Immediate actions

[Ditch]

My DM (or when I DM) points to an enemy NPC spellcaster and states simply, "Then orc shaman begins to cast a spell...." Pause for a sec and 9 out of 10 times someone in the party will say, "Oooh, I make a spellcraft check to see if I recognize the spell he's casting."

This is just how the flow goes with my group of gamers, so this issue has never really come up. Our DM's never blurt out simply "The orc shaman casts flamestrike on you."

 

[KarinsDad]

.....so.....

Does the DM need to pause and ask "Any immediate Actions?" before he says what kind of energy damage occurs?

I have a period of time in my game where I have any characters beyond 30 feet make a Listen or Spot roll to hear or see the spell caster casting a non-obvious spell (i.e. not Fireball, Mirror Image, Magic Missile, etc.). If you miss this roll, you might hear or see what is going on, but you did not hear or see it clearly enough to get a Spellcraft roll. Within 30 feet, this roll is not required.

I then give the PCs who were either within 30 feet or who made the Listen/Spot roll a Spellcraft roll to determine what spell is being cast. I then often write the name of the spell down on a piece of paper for those who made the Spellcraft roll.

This takes 30 seconds or so of real time to do. In this time period, a player has plenty of time to interrupt with an Instantaneous spell.

Granted, there is less time here for obvious spells since we generally do not roll for those. We only roll Spellcraft for those if they are rare spells that the players are unlikely to recognize (i.e. I just say that PCs 1, 2, and 3 make a saving throw from the Fireball for obvious spells).

Btw, in my campaign, PCs can only speak on their turns, hence, the reason I do not just name out loud the spell if someone makes the Spellcraft roll.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

I'm just wondering if there is an actual answer about the exact timing of Immediate Actions. For instance, Delay Death is much more useful if you can use it AFTER damage is rolled and you know someone is going to die from it rather than before the attack roll is even made, not even knowing if the enemy will hit.

Anyone have any quotes that have any information on this?

 

[frankthedm]

I'm just wondering if there is an actual answer about the exact timing of Immediate Actions. For instance, Delay Death is much more useful if you can use it AFTER damage is rolled and you know someone is going to die from it rather than before the attack roll is even made, not even knowing if the enemy will hit.

Anyone have any quotes that have any information on this?

IMHO the victim is dead when the damage dice stop rolling. The amount of damage is how bad the hit is. I'd think it is a little too late to delay death when the head has been removed.

I'd say it should be like feather fall, you can't wait to see if the falling damage will be lethal before you cast it.

Immediate actions are not ready actions, readies "resolve" before the triggering action.

 

[irdeggman]

IMHO the victim is dead when the damage dice stop rolling. The amount of damage is how bad the hit is. I'd think it is a little too late to delay death when the head has been removed.

I'd say it should be like feather fall, you can't wait to see if the falling damage will be lethal before you cast it.

Immediate actions are not ready actions, readies "resolve" before the triggering action.

Yup.

It is like Action Points. You have to declare using them before you know whether or not the roll being modified was successful or not.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

IMHO the victim is dead when the damage dice stop rolling. The amount of damage is how bad the hit is. I'd think it is a little too late to delay death when the head has been removed.

I'd say it should be like feather fall, you can't wait to see if the falling damage will be lethal before you cast it.

Immediate actions are not ready actions, readies "resolve" before the triggering action.

No, they are instead free actions that can only be taken once a turn, even during other people's turns. There are already free actions that allow to you do things between your attack and damage, and also WHILE casting a spell or WHILE making an attack.

Would you say that it's acceptable to do any of the following(?):

1)
DM: "The raging barbarian with the nastly looking greataxe attacks your friend, he hits. And...he crits....doing..."
Player: "I cast delay death!!"

2)
DM: "He casts a spell, it looks like a bead of fire streaks towards you and your party
Player: "I put up an immediate spell that protects us from fire"

3)
DM: "The enemy moves towards you and starts casting a spell."
Player: "I manifest Anticipatory Strike. I Mind Thrust the enemy for 12d10 points of damage, killing him. He never gets his spell off."

 

[KarinsDad]

Would you say that it's acceptable to do any of the following(?):

1)
DM: "The raging barbarian with the nastly looking greataxe attacks your friend, he hits. And...he crits....doing..."
Player: "I cast delay death!!"

No. After the "to hit" is declared, it's too late.

2)
DM: "He casts a spell, it looks like a bead of fire streaks towards you and your party
Player: "I put up an immediate spell that protects us from fire"

No. Fireball is an Instantaneous spell. The immediate spell had to be put up during casting.

3)
DM: "The enemy moves towards you and starts casting a spell."
Player: "I manifest Anticipatory Strike. I Mind Thrust the enemy for 12d10 points of damage, killing him. He never gets his spell off."

Yes. As long as he is in the midst of casting, AS will allow you to preempt him.

 

[Shadeus]

No. After the "to hit" is declared, it's too late.

Then what is the point of having the delay death spell be an immediate action? By this definition, you would have to have it cast on the person ahead of time. Or I guess if you see 8 people gang up on the rogue with 1 hp, you could cast it as well. This really neuters this spell...although it was admittedly powerful to begin with.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Then what is the point of having the delay death spell be an immediate action? By this definition, you would have to have it cast on the person ahead of time. Or I guess if you see 8 people gang up on the rogue with 1 hp, you could cast it as well. This really neuters this spell...although it was admittedly powerful to begin with.

It's some designers misinterprieting how immediate actions work and thinking they work like Instants (or for old schoolers Interupts) in Magic: the Gathering. Nowhere does it say that immediate actions work like readied actions or can be used in such a way as to interrupt an action that has already taken place.

They aren't triggered by something. You can't interrupt an immediate action with another immediate action. They occur when you say it, as you say it. These spells are laregely useless by the rules and should just be ignored.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

It's some designers misinterprieting how immediate actions work and thinking they work like Instants (or for old schoolers Interupts) in Magic: the Gathering. Nowhere does it say that immediate actions work like readied actions or can be used in such a way as to interrupt an action that has already taken place.

They aren't triggered by something. You can't interrupt an immediate action with another immediate action. They occur when you say it, as you say it. These spells are laregely useless by the rules and should just be ignored.

Well, let's go through the details:

Free Action
Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free.

Swift Action
A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. You can perform only a single swift action per turn.

Immediate Action
An immediate action is very similar to a swift action, but can be performed at any time — even if it's not your turn.

A swift action takes very small amount of time, but a bit more effort and energy than a free action. Nothing about it actually taking more time than a free action though.

So, essentially, a swift action is exactly the same as a free action with the limitation that you can only do 1 a turn.

You can take one or more free actions WHILE taking another action. For instance, you can speak while you are attacking someone since they can both be done at the same time.

Later in the SRD:

You can take a swift action any time you would normally be allowed to take a free action.

Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action, and counts as your swift action for that turn.

To get an idea of what sorts of things we can do with a free action and use that as a basis for when we can use immediate actions:

If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may draw a weapon as a free action combined with a regular move.

You can mount or dismount as a free action with a DC 20 Ride check.

You can stop concentrating on an active spell as a free action.

A character can spend 1 action point as a free action when fighting defensively.

A character can spend 1 action point as a free action to increase the effective caster level of one of his spells by 2. He must decide whether or not to spend an action point in this manner before casting the spell.

WINGOVER. A flying creature with this feat can change direction quickly once each round as a free action.

RAPID RELOAD. The time required for you to reload your chosen type of crossbow is reduced to a free action.

(under heading Free Actions)Prepare spell components to cast a spell

Drawing ammunition for use with a ranged weapon (such as arrows, bolts, sling bullets, or shuriken) is a free action.

Improved Grab (Ex): ...can attempt to start a grapple as a free action.

So, what we know is that you can take free actions (and therefore immediate actions) while moving(changing directions using wingover, drawing a weapon while moving), while casting a spell (to manipulate material components), in between attacks (drawing with quick draw, dropping weapons, reloading using rapid reload), and after you hit (Improved Grab).

We also know there is an immediate spell (Close Wounds) that specifically says it can be used even after damage is done to retroactively heal someone so they never took the damage. Of course this is specifically spelled out in this spell, so it may not apply to all immediate actions.

However, at the very least, we can assume that if an enemy can attack someone, then hit, then take a free action to grapple that if an enemy attacks someone, hits, then you can declare an immediate action between hitting and damage being rolled.