Adjudicating Immediate actions

[MarkB]

Nonsense.

#1) How do you know "what has already taken place?" => By the DM telling you.

#2) How does the DM "tell you"? By describing what happens.

#3) Can you interupt your DM before he's finished describing what happens? => Absolutely.


The issue really becomes: How rude do you want your players to be?

This, really, is the root of why I asked the question. It wasn't where in the sequence of actions you could use an immediate action that bothered me - it was where in the narrative. Some actions that take some time to complete can be described quickly, in a phrase or two. Others that take no time at all require longer explanations.

My concern is with giving the players a sufficient opportunity to use their immediate actions at the appropriate time, without slowing the game down or allowing them to second-guess their actions.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

I think the statement is that you can't interrupt an action that has already taken place. You can't wait to see who is targetted by a scorching ray for example before casting energy aegis on him, becuase at that point it is too late.

Feather fall can be cast when you know you're falling, but not after you've hit the ground. So if you see the ogre swinging his axe at an ally, you can cast delay death, but as soon as that axe hits, its too late.

I'm not sure about this. I can certainly visualize that the wizard mumbles something, points his hand in the direction of one of your friends, his hand bursts into flames and starts forming at his finger, then a bolt streaks out towards your friend.

With an action so quick that all you have to do is utter a single syllable and think of the target, you finish casting your protection spell the instant that the bolt hits your friend, protecting him from the blast.

I agree that "instanataneous" isn't exactly light speed.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Nonsense.

I disagree. How does the character know who is targetted by the scorching ray? Because it just fried the guy. How does the character know that the blow from the ogre's axe connected with his friend? Because the axe imbedded itself in the guy. The character and the players (including the DM) find out at the exact same time.

It is perfectly acceptable for the Player to see that an ogre is attempting to bisect his friend with his greataxe. It is completely unacceptable for the Player to only use delay death if he knows that the ogre is actually going to kill the character because the DM has already announced that he hit. By that time, the axe had indeed imbedded itself into the guy and there isn't a whole lot that can help him other than a nice raise dead.

The Player can't jump back in time with knowlege of what has been rolled in order to act only after knowing for a fact that the blow will land. How does the PC know? For some reason he only casts delay death and energy aegis when the attacks/spells hit, never when they miss? That's quite the precognative sense, don't you think?

EDIT: In actually play, the DM needs to announce intent for NPCs before resolution. Otherwise, the DM is moving too fast for the Players to keep up and not allowing them to use their abilities to their fullest. If the DM just announces damage with no opportunity for the PCs to use their Immediate actions, then he needs to slow down.

 

[ThirdWizard]

I'm not sure about this. I can certainly visualize that the wizard mumbles something, points his hand in the direction of one of your friends, his hand bursts into flames and starts forming at his finger, then a bolt streaks out towards your friend.

With an action so quick that all you have to do is utter a single syllable and think of the target, you finish casting your protection spell the instant that the bolt hits your friend, protecting him from the blast.

I agree that "instanataneous" isn't exactly light speed.

Would you allow a wizard to cast a point blank area of effect damage spell right beside himself then use a Quickened protection from energy to protect himself from the damage before the spell goes off? See, I wouldn't. In my mind, there's no time between him ending the casting of the spell and choosing his target/area and the spell going off. Not even enough time for a Free Action.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Would you allow a wizard to cast a point blank area of effect damage spell right beside himself then use a Quickened protection from energy to protect himself from the damage before the spell goes off? See, I wouldn't. In my mind, there's no time between him ending the casting of the spell and choosing his target/area and the spell going off. Not even enough time for a Free Action.

Yes, I would, as long as damage wasn't dealt yet. There is a split second as the bolt leaves your finger, streaks out to the ground, then explodes into a large radius. If you were ready for it, you could probably cast a spell that was THAT fast.

However, in that case it doesn't matter...The wizard could cast them in the reverse order since he knows he's about the fireball...*grin*

 

[ThirdWizard]

However, in that case it doesn't matter...The wizard could cast them in the reverse order since he knows he's about the fireball...*grin*

He would under my reading of how Instantaneous effects work, becuase otherwise, he'd take damage!

Note I didn't use fireball because of the strange nature of the "bead" in the spell. Think of a spell like a fire based horrid wilting which targets individual creatures in the radius or a lightning bolt directed at his own square.

 

[Warmage-in-Onley]

Would you allow a wizard to cast a point blank area of effect damage spell right beside himself then use a Quickened protection from energy to protect himself from the damage before the spell goes off? See, I wouldn't. In my mind, there's no time between him ending the casting of the spell and choosing his target/area and the spell going off. Not even enough time for a Free Action.

I'm going to pick a nit here. A Quickened spell is not an immediate action, it's a swift action. And in your example the Wizard could just as well cast a Quickened Protection and then cast Fireball to the same result. I understand your argument for adjudicating actions sequentially, however. Could we agree, then, that using Spellcraft to identify during casting is the best way to approach setting up immediate action spells? Would it be unreasonable to allow the Spellcraft check to divulge not only the spell but the target/area of effect (and essentially all non-variable aspects of the spell)?

 

[ThirdWizard]

I'm going to pick a nit here. A Quickened spell is not an immediate action, it's a swift action.

But, they both work like free actions. That's the point I'm trying to make. An Immediate Action is a Free Action that you can decide to take even if it isn't your turn. It is not similar to a Readied Action. A Readied Action allows for IF THEN things to apply.

An Immediate Action has more in common with Delay than with Ready.

Could we agree, then, that using Spellcraft to identify during casting is the best way to approach setting up immediate action spells? Would it be unreasonable to allow the Spellcraft check to divulge not only the spell but the target/area of effect (and essentially all non-variable aspects of the spell)?

I think that a Spellcraft roll to figure out what spell is being cast is the best way to go.

Using Spellcraft to figure out the target is trickier. The caster doesn't have to specify the target until he's done casting his spell. How would a Spellcraft check during casting determine the target if the caster hasn't actually had to choose yet.

If I were to adjudicate this totally outside the realm of RAW, my personal oppinion is that it should be a Sense Motive check (because the caster obviously has a target in mind) DC 10 or, if the caster is trying to hide it for some reason, vs. their Bluff check, whichever is higher.

However, this still doesn't solve the problem that if you cast aegis on someone while the spell is being cast, the caster can choose a different target if they make a Spellcraft roll against your spell, too.

Which is why I say the spell is mostly useless.

 

[Warmage-in-Onley]

But, these spells are still beneficial when the immediate action caster is the target! And I'm the only one I really care about anyway...

 

[ThirdWizard]

True. If you see he's about to let out a fireball and your party is all bunched up, you can aegis yourself and pity your friends.