Adult: GUCK Development Forum again

[VVrayven]

Good Points, Asher.

I agree that they were cumbersome, but I developed a slew of them that would appeal for characters who want to improve their sex lives but aren't interested in specializing to the extent that they'd want to take, say, Tricks of the Great Improviso. Any chance we could offer a Carnal Art for the generalist, encompassing several less spicy but still useful techniques?

Absolutely, in fact, I'm working on two right now that are variable and will hopefully fill the empty void left by the absence of the easy sex tricks. Bear in mind. We also intend to have a sidebar with rules on how to give bonus feats for a sexually oriented campaign so that characters don't have to give up stuff to get good at sex.

It does increase the number-crunching, sadly. Still, I like that it encourages characters to take their time if they want better results. The ladies are sure to endorse that concept.

I do endorse it. But as a sidebar and varient rule, not part of the absolute core system.

That's a difficult concept to get my head around. Can anyone tell me, then, what things can happen within a round in the Climaxed state? If the definition is vague, that's fine, but I don't really understand under what circumstances the equation "1 round Climaxed = 1 orgasm" wouldn't apply.

I'll try. It's more female phenomenon, though I'm certain some tantric men might manage. It is possible for a multi-orgasmic woman to have several "small" orgasms within half-a-second of each other. Say, four or five or more in a 6 second period. These aren't as intense as an all out normal orgasm, thus each orgasm doesn't count, just the 6 second period in which there were one to several climaxes.

1) I'd like to see one or two additional Arts available with each Carnal Art feat, to make them more worthwhile for a character to take.

In the works. Hopefully.

Should a character *really* be allowed to bring her partner to any state of arousal whose DC was met by her SP check result? In a way, that seems like giving characters the "Sexual Expertise" and "Teasing Lover" tricks for free (not that they exist anymore at any rate). Should the rule be, instead, that the partner is always brought to the highest state of arousal permitted by the SP check result? Characters who wish to draw things out a bit would take 10, or perhaps even "take 1" if they declare that they're really going to throttle back for a few moments.

Well. I see your point. But here is the problem. If you get really good, you CANNOT draw it out, even by taking 10. Partners need to have some control. I think even semi-skilled partners have enough knowledge on how to slow down or speed up, or how to hold back just a little. I don't think it takes a great deal of special talent. So yes, I think you should be able to select any level lower than the number you hit. Or perhaps, any level lower, but you can only reduce the partner's current state by one level? What do you think?

Although Sex Tricks are out the window, I think I keep reading allusions to Sexual Focus proficiencies and the like. Maybe I'm thinking of posts made before the decision to axe Sex Tricks from the GUCK, but if not, what is being referred to?

Prowess works like perform. Fetishes and Frets are sometimes activated by a partner using a certain form of Prowess. The focuses are still used to activate these kinks. And, some things aren't possible unless you have the prof.

These are all really good questions, Asher. I'll be happy to respond to any others as you have them.

 

[Death By Surfeit]

Thankyou, Asher, for your contributions, and you too VVrayven for pre-empting the majority of my reply on these issues – you’re becoming dangerously perceptive.

Perhaps I’m being a little vague for the purposes of this thread, but the ‘taking 20’ generalisation was designed for circumstances that use the ‘Soft Focus’ rules – basically another way of saying that ‘out-of-shot’ congress lasts six minutes (each taking 20 Prowess check takes two minutes) or more, and both partners are assumed to reach Climax by some method or another.

The actual Arousal DC table refers specifically to the Hard Focus rules, where affairs are sorted out by actual d20 rolls each time – to make the difference clear, I think we should disallow taking 10 or taking 20 when using Hard Focus.

With regards sexual fatigue and ‘recovery’, firstly I would like to remain somewhat adamant as to Sexual Fatigue. From my experience, your average man or woman can certainly continue after the first orgasm, but the affair is tiring – it would not be inconsiderable to impose a rather measly –2 to the check; after all, the average woman is still allowed another 15 (a further 10 before exhaustion, VVrayven) before being pretty much out for the count. It may not be the most accurate of systems, but it’s (relatively) simple and workable enough.

However, I would advocate, however, increasing it to 1+Con mod (again, minimum 1) where matters were once only Con mod. The perfectionist in me wants to keep everything in neat, memorable numbers as befitting of 3rd ed, but there is little between the attribute scores themselves and their modifiers. Is this a good enough compromise?

Your suggestions are very much valid with regards the male ‘recovery time’ – sexual fatigue itself refers to actual tiredness and thus should not be specially penalised (after all, the condition can last for many hours), but perhaps a circumstantial modifier should be imposed for a period after Climax or Ecstasy; any suggestions for this?

The Sex Tricks have indeed been reworked into Carnal Arts, although most of the focuses haven’t been featured (we decided to avoid simple modifier manoeuvres for fear of threatening balance); there are no plans to have any available to characters who don’t take the appropriate feats. The ‘appropriate circumstances’ restriction may still apply, but it would be a little less strict to reflect the fact that players have paid for the privilege of doing so.

Once again thankyou Asher, for your scrutinising of the system has yielded many points that need to be altered or clarified. More of the same, please!

As I continue to squirrel away at the mechanical compilation, I’ve come up with a more-or-less complete list of circumstantial modifiers. As nobody has posted any other submissions in the meantime, I thought I’d post what I’d dreamt up. This is my no means gospel, and should you have any changes to make, for chrissakes post them – if you don’t, tell me whether I’m on the right track.

So, before I lose myself nattering, here they are:

MASTER LIST OF CIRCUMSTANTIAL MODIFIERS TO PROWESS DC, v1.0

Subject Status
+2 when subject of check is Fatigued
+6 when subject of check is Exhausted

Technique
+2 unusual technique
+5 inappropriate technique
+10 very inappropriate technique
+4 per subject of the Prowess check past the first, up to Dexterity modifier

Circumstances
+2 awkward circumstances (eg. in public)
+5 dangerous circumstances (eg. in combat)

Fetishes & Frets
-fetish bonus (according to fetish) when used on a partner with the fetish
+fetish bonus (according to fetish) when used on a partner without the fetish
+fret penalty (according to fret) when appropriate

Damage
+total damage received in round if subject is not masochistic
-total damage received in round if subject is masochistic
-total damage dealt to partners in round if subject is sadistic

Whilst writing this list up, it occurred to me that there was no definition of what constituted an improper technique for the purposes of modifiers, hence as a list of proficiencies also needed to be provided, I thought I’d clarify the suitability to each for given tasks. This certainly adds a tactical element to proceedings, and encourages people to, ahem, experiment a little. They may not be absolutely true-to-life, but at least they’re balanced.

PROFICIENCY APPLICATION v0.1
Proficiencies are done by group for the sake of convenience where possible. Each group consists of multiple proficiencies (shown in brackets), although modifiers are identical within the group.

Group (Proficiencies)
Aroused/Peaked/Climaxed/Ecstatic modifiers
Remember that these are modifiers to the DC! Less is more!

Bondage (By type – Contortion, Hanging, Inverted, Ties etc.)
Aroused +0 / Peaked +2 / Climaxed +10 / Ecstatic +10

Caress (By type – Breasts, Erotic Massage, Stroking etc.)
Aroused +0 / Peaked +2 / Climaxed +10 / Ecstatic +10

DSM (Domination, Submission)
Aroused +0 / Peaked +2 / Climaxed +10 / Ecstatic +10

Masturbation (Male, Female)
Aroused +2 / Peaked 0 / Climaxed +2 / Ecstatic +5

Oral (Cunnilingus, Fellatio)
Aroused +2 / Peaked 0 / Climaxed +2 / Ecstatic +5

Penetrative (By position – Cross, Frontal, Half-facing, Inverted, Matrimonial, Negresse, Rear, Riding, Scissors, Standing etc.)
Aroused +10 / Peaked +2 / Climaxed 0 / Ecstatic 0
*This use of Prowess is reciprocal – your partner makes a Prowess check back against you, although it is optional as to whether to add Prowess rank bonus*

Sodomy (Receiving)
Aroused +10 / Peaked +2 / Climaxed 0 / Ecstatic 0

Toys (By item – Dildos, Wizards’ Staffs, etc.)
Aroused +10 / Peaked +2 / Climaxed 0 / Ecstatic 0

And, of course, whatever everyone else can think up.

Looking back on things, it certainly leaves no restrictions on how many proficiencies someone would be interested in – more than 25 are named on the list alone, upwards of 15 of which aren’t too obscure or kinky.

Oh, and whilst we were at it, I was wondering whether there might be the possibility of adding proficiencies to induce horniness rather than physical arousal – after a while I decided that this may be best left as a use of the Perform (lapdance, dirty talk etc) instead – maybe test against same DC as Climaxed (18 male, 20 female), with an optional Will save to resist rather than fortitude.

Sorry for this severe burst of material on my part (it’s the best method of ignoring the fact us British are getting dragged into Bush’s sordid little excursion despite the consensus of our people – although your appreciation doesn’t help matters, VVrayven ), but I hope you can give your opinions as soon as possible… before I post anything else up!

DbS

PS. That is a genuine threat. Don’t try calling my bluff!

 

[Asher]

It is possible for a multi-orgasmic woman to have several "small" orgasms within half-a-second of each other. Say, four or five or more in a 6 second period. These aren't as intense as an all out normal orgasm, thus each orgasm doesn't count, just the 6 second period in which there were one to several climaxes.

Oh, is that all you meant? Sure, I understand how that works. So really all we're saying is, when determining how many "climaxes" a character can experience before becoming Fatigued/Exhausted, we're not counting the number of discrete sensations that could be called "orgasms", only the number of rounds spent in the Climaxed (or Ecstatic) state. In that case, we're on the same page.

If you get really good, you CANNOT draw it out, even by taking 10. Partners need to have some control. I think even semi-skilled partners have enough knowledge on how to slow down or speed up, or how to hold back just a little. I don't think it takes a great deal of special talent. So yes, I think you should be able to select any level lower than the number you hit. Or perhaps, any level lower, but you can only reduce the partner's current state by one level? What do you think?

Yes, I was a little concerned about the problem that that rule would create for extremely skilled people as well ("Help! I have a +30 Prowess modifier and can't touch a man without bringing him to the brink!"). And on the other end, I agree that people of the most modest skill and brainpower understand how to slow down or speed up as the need requires, which is why I always thought the "Delay Orgasm" trick, though beneficial in terms of game mechanics, didn't seem worthy of being a special "trick" inasmuch as it only describes what everyone does all the time.

Still, you just can't always precisely control your partner's responses, which is the basic reasoning behind my comments. Unfortunately, I have no suggestions for how to reflect that fact in the core mechanics that don't involve additional complication and number-crunching. The most elegant solution I can think of is to allow a character to exercise control (ie, choose a state of arousal for the partner other than the highest permitted by the Prowess check) for a number of rounds equal to their ranks in Prowess, or perhaps ranks in Prowess + INT mod, or some such thing.

Good dialogue, VVrayven; thanks for giving this stuff your attention.

 

[Death By Surfeit]

Addendum

Oh, and to address the issue of trying to slow down proceedings, I would suggest just an extension of the fact that during congress it is entirely optional whether you apply your Prowess rank bonus.

Hence, to allow some choice but also a little unpredictability into affairs, characters could opt to use part or even none of their full bonus in a (rather risky) attempt to slow down.

 

[Asher]

Prowess works like perform. Fetishes and Frets are sometimes activated by a partner using a certain form of Prowess. The focuses are still used to activate these kinks. And, some things aren't possible unless you have the prof.

Okay, so as per the OGL description for Perform: "The character is capable of one form of performance per rank." The various proficiencies listed by DbS, then, are available to characters at a rate of one proficiency per rank in Prowess, much as Sex Tricks used to be (but with no minimum number of Prowess ranks attached to any)? Gotcha.

As an example, Fred the Fighter has three ranks in Prowess and, being a meat-and-potatoes sort of guy, chooses three proficiencies from the Penetrative group: Matrimonial, Rear, and Riding. In his encounter with Deirdre the Druid, who has a Fetish for the Riding position and a Fret about the Rear position, Fred finds that his DC increases when attempting the latter position, but decreases when he tries the former.

One thing I'm not exactly clear on -- and I think this is just me being exceptionally dense -- is the relationship between the DC modifiers in DbS's Proficiency tables, and those for Fetishes/Frets. When are the DC modifiers in the Proficiency tables applied?

DbS, I like your suggestion about making the Prowess bonus applicable at will. It's perfectly intuitive and requires no futzing around with additional numbers.

 

[Bastoche]

Just for the record, I'd prefer "prowess" to be a separate skill rather than a perfom subskill. Sorry if it was already covered. Class skill for everybody.

 

[VVrayven]

I love it!

Great work. On the modifiers and everything!

Okay. I have Toys(wand) and I want to start pleasing myself from ground zero: my arousal DC is a 26 (16 +10) cause it's hard to get aroused with just a wand. If instead I wanted to use my caress (breasts) prof to arouse myself, the DC would be a 16. However, if I then started to use my toys (wand) prof... I would have a DC 20 to peak myself and then a DC 20 to climax. (+2 and +0 modifiers).

On the other hand. Say my sorceress friend is trying to use oral (cunnilingus) on me. She doesn't have the prof, and I'm not aroused yet. She has a DC 18 to (16 + 2) and her prowess check suffers a -4 from non-prof. I could however, touch myself with my masturbation (female) prof with a DC of 18 (16 + 2) to arouse myself and let her try from there.

I love the system DbS, excellent work. <blows a kiss>

I think caress should be more defined and I think we should have an optional sidebar with a varient rule for different positions having different modifiers.

 

[VVrayven]

DbS. One thing. On the fatigue issues. A commoner women (Con 10, hp 4) can sustain only 6 orgasms before passing out (not 10 to 15). Is this right?

1 to Fatigue
1 to Exhaustion
4 at 1 hp a piece untill pass out... ?

Oh, and to address the issue of trying to slow down proceedings, I would suggest just an extension of the fact that during congress it is entirely optional whether you apply your Prowess rank bonus.

Great, and I mean GREAT idea!

Just for the record, I'd prefer "prowess" to be a separate skill rather than a perfom subskill

It is already. It just works LIKE perform.

 

[VVrayven]

*This use of Prowess is reciprocal – your partner makes a Prowess check back against you, although it is optional as to whether to add Prowess rank bonus*

Hmmm. Wouldn't this mean four prowess checks are being made in a round? I think a better addem would be:

This use of prowess is mutually exlcusive. It can only be used if both partners engage in it, and their prowess checks are made toward one another. Both partners must make a check, though they can chose to apply their bonus or not.

This also brings up the question of NC. If a person rapes another this indicates that "penetrative" is being used. From a mechanical stand point, does it make sense for the victim to roll prowess (even without bonus) for the rapist?

although your appreciation doesn’t help matters, VVrayven

Glad I can help. And I can't help it really. You come up with great ideas. <sly smile>

 

[Gez]

Re: Re: Warning! Long Post!

About feat prerequisites for carnal arts, I still think we should use general feats rather than specific ones. It defeats the purpose of arts (remember martial arts are supposed to be sort of synergy bonuses that you get for free when you have the right skill & feat combo). Keying them to feats who have no other role follow a totally different philosophy.

Here's a proposal:

IMMACULATE FORMS OF THE MASTER
Before arising to become the Master of the Immaculate Forms, Weil-Hung lived a life of monastic seclusion, of quiet contemplation and iron discipline. It is against these principles that he rebelled - it is Weil-Hung’s dogma that life is best experienced by really living - sense achieved by sensuality. After a time of hedonistic travelling, he drew upon his martial prowess and sensual experience to found a school of martial arts that forms a very real war of the sexes.

Prerequisite: Str 13+, 3 or more ranks of Sexual Prowess, Endurance, Stunning Fist. (the SF requirement assumes the stunning fist ability is based on knowledge of ki meridian and other mystic energy point of the body).


FLOWERS OF THE DECADENT BLOSSOM
This art was born from the hedonistic aristocracy of Sumfing Oranutha, the noble and the rich who turned their backs on the concerns of the real world in order to immerse themselves in a lifetime of relationships, affairs and, more often than they would like to admit, downright debauchery. The Flowers were their only cultural legacy, a carnal art suited to such a solipsistic life.

Prerequisites: 5 or more ranks of Sexual Prowess, 2 or more ranks Perform, Alertness, Lightning Reflexes.

TECHNIQUES OF THE HALFLING HARLOT
Legends state that the Art of the Halfling Harlot is as old as the profession, which, being the oldest in the world, makes its origins hard to trace indeed. The Art flourishes within the halfling prostitution community, passed down to young escorts as an essential survival skill as much as anything else; outsiders are free to learn it, but its limited application means that they seldom ask.

Prerequisite: Con 13+, 3 or more ranks of Sexual Prowess, either Endurance, Great Fortitude or Toughness.

TRICKS OF THE GREAT IMPROVISO
The sad demise of the gnome known only as the Improviso (and, since, the Great Improviso) was recorded less than a hundred years ago. The legendary arcanalist walked the world dabbling in the sensual arts, and his desire to acquire undisclosed knowledge is equalled only by his urge to pass it on - the Naughtie Works of the Improviso has since been etched in more than a dozen languages and circulated across the Great Wheel. For those who can afford the time to study it and the intellect to understand it, the Naughtie Works provide many useful nuggets of information.

Prerequisite: Int 13+, 6 or more ranks of Sexual Prowess, Iron Will.

LORE OF THE TANTRIC ANCIENTS
Ancient tomes write of the wisdom of a monastic order from ancient times, whose control of body echoed through to a discipline of the mind and purity of spirit. Those few wise individuals that perpetuate the teachings of the tantric ancients welcome new pupils, knowing that with mastery over the body equal control over one’s destiny can be attained.

Prerequisite: Wis 13+, 3 or more ranks of Sexual Prowess, Endurance, Iron Will

ART OF THE IMMORTAL NYMPH
The greatest and most glamorous of courtesans pass around a group of postures, techniques and mindsets that serve only to enhance their natural charm. Only those demonstrating professionalism in attitude and prowess are deigned suitable to acquire such knowledge - the Art is seldom acquired outside of the Courtesans’ Guild.

Prerequisite: Cha 13+, 3 or more ranks in each of Sexual Prowess, Bluff, and Perform, Skill Focus (Perform or Sexual Prowess)