Adult: GUCK development forum III

[Loren Pechtel]

On conception:

To: DbS
1) Under normal conditions it shouldn't matter how much he pumps into her (another roll for a second climax). Unless something is interfering, one ejaculation is far more than is needed to do the job.

2) Contraceptives are *FAR* more effective than your model shows. For a human, a condom has only a 67% chance of blocking conception?!?! The religious right might have you believe this....
2a) Condoms shouldn't be more effective for the less fertile races. A condom should have basically a fixed reduction in the chance of conception. As such I would not include it in the pregnancy roll at all. Instead it should be a separate roll entirely--the chance that contraception blocks conception.

3) Even without this, conception is too likely. Take two humans, no protection. Probability of conception = 24%. The real number is more like 3%.

 

[Death By Surfeit]

Just explain myself a moment...

I had made sheaths relatively ineffective because we certainly aren't talking about modern technology - a cotton or pigskin slip is more likely. Under the rules I posted, the chances of two humans successfully procreating from one roll is 20.25%, as chance of conception = ((21 - DC) x 5%) squared. Use of a sheath drops this to 12.25%; a masterwork one makes odds decrease to 6.25%. Each level approximately halves the chances of conception, which I think is about right.

However, if people feel the odds are too likely, we could adjust the DCs accordingly, by adding two to all DCs or dropping the increment to one instead of two. After calculating the odds, I favour the latter, as it produces the following results:

Fertility / Sample Race / DC / Chance
Very High / Orc / 15 / 9%
High / Human / 16 / 6.25%
Average / Halfling / 17 / 4%
Low / Elf / 18 / 2.25%
Very Low / Dragon / 19 / 1%
Sheath +1
MW Sheath +2

However, I am stumbling when it comes to resolving this as I am receiving conflicting arguments on conception odds and whether matters should be resolved by Climax or by encounter (been a long time since sex education...). Frankly, I don't know what to think anymore. feel free to bicker amongst yourselves, propose alternative systems, and whatever.

Regarding crossbreeding, I hold by the principle that if it is not clearly Relatable (can spawn halfbreeds) or Related (are halfbreeds), they are Unrelatable, and this category governs most couplings.

Dwarves and halflings, for example, are considered Related to humans, humans having related with two races that have since been lost; a similar principle applies to gnomes and dwarves.

Elves and rrcs are Relatable to humans. Dwarves and halflings are Unrelatable to elves or orcs, and so on. Unrelatable creatures (sorry, that does apply to unicorns) are exactly that, unless certain enchantments are used, in which case Savage Species provides some handy templates. The entire section should be concise enough to fit into two pages at most, and I can set about it rather quickly whilst the conception debate reigns.

Anyways, I suggest we get this matter resolved. I'm willing to throw my weight behind the mechanics posted beforehand with the table above, but I'm yet to be swayed in the Climax/encounter debate. Please all post your own take on things.

 

[Sorn]

The new DC's look good.

I am firmly in favor of an encounter-based conception system. Not only is it biologically more realistic, it also cuts down on the amount of dice-rolling. A higher-level character could possibly spend several rounds climaxed. Not only does he have to make all the Prowess-related checks, now we have to add 2 more rolls for conception each round.

For the biological factor, more is not necessarily better. Sperm does fight amongst itself to get to the egg, so it might not be out of the question that more would yield to lesser odds of conception. But since I am no doctor or biologist, this is merely conjecture on my part.

In any case, encounter based will tie in easier with fade-to-black and soft-focus groups. If there was a roll for each round climaxed, hard-focus games would yield a LOT more pregnancies. Just imagine a tantric master or a spellcaster who cast a spell that made his orgasms very intense and long-lasting. He'd be very likely to father children all over the place.

As far as crossbreeding goes... I see what you are saying. It could work, but what happens if the dwarf and the human have a kid? Do they get a gnome? Unless you bring Muls over from Dark Sun, there's no such thing as a half-dwarf (or half-gnome or half-halfling for that matter).

So, the only relatable PHB races would be Human-Elf and Human-Orc. Since there's a bunch of templates out there, extraplanar liasons are covered, as are dragons. I vaguely remember a half-ogre template somewhere, but I am not sure whether it is anything official.

I am still a little leary of even bothering with that... a little sidebar with the few things that actually work together might be better than putting 2 pages together.

 

[Alzrius]

I'm still slightly leary of assigning races into various "fertility categories", since then that sort of necessitates that we group all the races in the Race section by how fertile they are.

That said, the DC's you posted there, DbS, seem pretty good by themselves. They still leave some questions though, namely, who makes the roll, the male, or the female?

That said, I'd also favor an encounter-based check for pregnancy. I would have it work that every additional round of climax used when using a Penetrative technique beyond the first adds +1 to the roll to check for conception.

In regards to the Related/Relatable thing though, as Sorn pointed out, that would, the way you posted it, mean that there should be half-breeds of most of the core races running around. Likewise, it seems odd that dragons are able to have halfbreeds with humans, but a dwarf and an orc can't have a child (or a unicorn and a human, for that matter, to use my old example).

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Just explain myself a moment...

I had made sheaths relatively ineffective because we certainly aren't talking about modern technology - a cotton or pigskin slip is more likely. Under the rules I posted, the chances of two humans successfully procreating from one roll is 20.25%, as chance of conception = ((21 - DC) x 5%) squared. Use of a sheath drops this to 12.25%; a masterwork one makes odds decrease to 6.25%. Each level approximately halves the chances of conception, which I think is about right.

I have a hard time accepting that they would have been that unreliable back then. After all, you can put water in and see if it leaks! Besides, withdrawl is a lot more effective than that.

Besides, there's other possible techniques. How about half a lemon used like a diaphram?

You also aren't addressing the problem that under your system condoms work a lot better for low-fertility races than high-fertility races. If the semen is stopped, it's stopped.
Contraception should be a separate roll.

After calculating the odds, I favour the latter, as it produces the following results:

Agreed. That's a lot closer to reality, probably as good as you are going to get with a simple system.

However, I am stumbling when it comes to resolving this as I am receiving conflicting arguments on conception odds and whether matters should be resolved by Climax or by encounter (been a long time since sex education...).

I would go so far as to say per day, other than in dealing with the effectiveness of contraception. If a reasonable amount of semen is deposited that's it--conception is then entirely a matter of whether there's a good egg there.

 

[Alzrius]

I have a hard time accepting that they would have been that unreliable back then. After all, you can put water in and see if it leaks!

They're still less effective in that they're prone to tearing more, and even the smallest of leaks can defeat the entire purpose of them, since they don't use spermicide.

Besides, there's other possible techniques. How about half a lemon used like a diaphram?

I imagine that technique faded into obscurity real fast simply due to the fact that no one likes a sourpuss.

You also aren't addressing the problem that under your system condoms work a lot better for low-fertility races than high-fertility races. If the semen is stopped, it's stopped.
Contraception should be a separate roll.

I feel the urge to point out here that the goal of this system is not to produce the most true-to-life set of mechanics possible. In real life its possible to attack more than just once per six seconds, and in real life just being better at your career doesn't mean you can take ten times as much damage as a lesser person could.

One of the things we're striving for here (and, IMHO, quickly losing grasp of) is simplicity. Making a fertility roll, and then a contraception roll, is against that grain.

I would go so far as to say per day, other than in dealing with the effectiveness of contraception. If a reasonable amount of semen is deposited that's it--conception is then entirely a matter of whether there's a good egg there.

I still say that the best thing is per encounter, since a woman may have multiple partners per day, for example.

 

[Sorn]

Well, on the subject of contraceptives, I did a little research a few months ago. History shows that there were all kinds of spermizides used, ranging from honey to olive oil to a strange concoction involving crocodile dung.

Other methods involved vaginal sponges and the abovementioned sheaths made from intestines and fish bladders. The problem with the sheaths is that they were usually sown together, leading to abrasions. Needless to say, they were meant more as a protection from disease than a fully functional contraceptive.

I'd say let's get the pregnancy basics finalized and worry about the contraceptives later when we do the equipment chapter. There's a book out there detailing the history of contraceptives. I'll try and get my hands on a copy to flesh out the equipment chapter.

 

[Death By Surfeit]

Wotcher,

Another interim post. Regarding the material thus far
1) I'm content to arrange matters by encounter, as it makes more sense and is easier on the die-rolling.
2) It is irrelevant whether the male or female makes the roll, as the DCs are going to be identical. In the case of crossbreeding, you use the higher DC anyway.
3) Regarding my plans to do a brief section on crossbreeding - it charters the relationships between the common humanoids, with guidelines for other races, so shouldn't be too extensive or complex. Oh, and as previously mentioned dwarves are Related to humans, so the offspring are one or the other.
4) Sourpuss... heehee
5) Good research Sorn, and I'm sure it wold help. My idea was that simpler sheaths (sewn cotton and such) are regarded as 'sheaths' whilst 'masterwork sheaths' are more finely made and anointed with honey or another of the substances you mention. Oh, and I did consider making contraception a 'miss chance' (20% common, 50% masterwork), if that is preferable.

That just about summarises my current thoughts. If some sort of consensus can be achieved, we can start arguing over pregancy instead .

DbS

 

[brevdravis]

As far as the contraception thing goes...

OK, just thought I should toss in my 2c here.

As far as the conception rules go, I vote for "by Encounter", since it speeds up the process. (I did a couple play by play's in my spare time, and the multiple conception rolls are a pain in the butt.)


Since we already have the "Withdrawal" method (Under Veteran's Knack) that uses a percentage for Contraception, why don't we stay consistent and make it a general "miss chance."

One roll for the conception, which, if pregnancy is indicated, is followed by a "Contraception" roll, which is a straight percentage.

That way we stay true to what we're doing, and other methods of contraception can easily be added by just assigning them a "miss chance". I'm just wondering if the percentages for miss chances should stack, or if we should only use the highest percentage in use for a combined chance.

Stuart

 

[brevdravis]

Regarding the whole Crossbreed issue.

I'm inclined to be a little gun-shy about Crossbreeds in general. (too many Munchkins in my past...)

Fortunately for us, there is a book out on the market already that covers the subject, so we can pretty much gloss it over in our version of the rules. I vote for a sidebar, but if you guys want a maximum or 2-3 pages.

Now later on, for the HEx expansion, we may want to revisit this, especially with the whole "host vs. true crossbreeds" thang....



Stuart