Adult: GUCK development forum III

[Death By Surfeit]

Wotcher,

Another holding post until I can get the last of the interbreeding rules set up - bear with me!

At the risk of going mildly off-topic, I don't think we should get a vote. This thread is open to anyone's input, but there are clearly defined heads of this project (Sorn, DbS, and VVrayven). These are the people who are obviously the heart and soul of this entire enterprise, and they should, IMHO, have oversight on the project. They get the final say on how the mechanics work.

Centralized systems of decision like this may be less "fair", but they're always more efficient, and that's something that is paramount to the GUCK.

The rest of us can lobby our positions but there are only three votes.

I'm flattered by the importance you place on some of us, but I wouldn't go that far. The GUCK conversion was always envisaged as a community effort (we wouldn't have got far if it hadn't) and the entire board's opinions are valued. However much any of us oldies likes an idea, condemnation from the rest of the board means that we've obviously got something wrong, and this applies to everyone. I would have withdrawn my proposal if it had proved unpopular, but as things are (unless there are any other voices to be raised) the consensus seems to be for it, so I feel it should be held.

The detailed rules are well thought out and very accurate, but beyonds the needs of many a group; simpler rules seem like less of a burden and are hence more likely to be used. We have been embroiled in difficult statistics and such previously, but these have been used to work toward simple and balanced final rules, and this is the manner in which I feel we should continue.

In response to everybody's suggestions and ideas, I would move for the following:

A) In a conception roll, a 1 is always a failure and a 20 is always a success. This stops imbalances, and holds true to the eccentricity of such a process. Perfect contraception (or conception) is solely the domain of high level magic, and is unavailable to the public.

B) Regarding mundane methods, entries on the mundane equipment table will be marked 'Contraceptive' and 'Masterwork Contaceptive', affording +1 and +2 bonuses, respectively. I would suggest the first weighs in at 1sp, the second at 5gp.

C) Magical methods: Magic would offer an additional level of protection, but would be relatively expensive and available only to the wealthy. I would suggest the following spell:

Barren Land
Necromancy
Clr 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V,S,M,DF
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: Touch
Target: One living creature
Duration: 1 month (D)
Saving throw: Fortitude partial
Spell Resistance: Yes
You channel negative energy into a creature, hampering their efforts to sow the seed of life. Conception rolls involving the creature suffer a -1 enhancement penalty / caster level, up to a maximum of -5. This modifier stacks with the modifier from mundane contraception.
Barren land counters and dispels Fertile fields.
Arcane Material Component: Some fresh grass.
Divine Focus: Your deity's holy symbol.

This of course can be infused to make a potion:

Potion / Market price
Barren land / 25gp
Barren land (caster level 2nd) / 50gp
Barren land (caster level 3rd) / 75gp
Barren land (caster level 4th) / 100gp
Barren land (caster level 5th) / 125gp

Such protection is deliberately beyond the reach of common folk, who must resort to more primitive methods. I would disagree with 'communal contraception' as it devalues magic by making it a drab, monthly task.

C) Withdrawal: We don't have any responsibility to encourage or discourage the practice, but this is a far from perfect method at the best of times, and the mechanics should reflect that. When a male is using a Penetrative proficiency and Climaxes, he may use the first round of the extended round to attempt withdrawal. This is an exception to the rule that Climaxed characters are considered stunned. He may not be stimulated into an extended Climax, and may not use his Penetrative proficiency on his partner that round, but receives a 20% conception miss chance. The Withdrawal manoeuvre increases this miss chance (see below).

VETERAN'S KNACK
Requires 3 Ranks Prowess – Withdrawal
May be activated before rolling for a conception miss chance from withdrawal. The miss chance is increased to 50%. If both partners employ this manoeuvre, the miss chance is increased to 90%. This ability is instantaneous.

D) Perhaps a sidebar on contraception in society, detailing availability, changes to roles and common attitudes would be warranted, but it would be best concise as Gms will undoubtedly have their own opinions.

E) We start arguing over pregnancy rules instead.

That's my thoughts spent.

DbS

PS. VVrayven, how are you getting along? Last thing I heard, you were working on spell lists, but you haven't posted in awhile. It would be a shame to lose your hand in the work.

 

[VVrayven]

Hello all. Sorry for my absence. Life was very hellish last week and I needed the weekend any from gaming, computers, and everything tojust relax with my boyfriend. I'm feeling much better now. I have been following the preg/contra leads and find it all very interesting. My opinions mirror DbS's for the most part so I fear I have little to add to that discussion.

My soft core mechanics are done and were posted a couple of weeks ago. DbS you can feel free to write the flavor text around them if you wish, stating that it takes about an hour and both people are fatigued and so forth.

I am working on the spell list. I should have something for posting soon. Take care all.

::hugs::

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: All in favor of cutting down rolls

If I may, I think that you've lost touch with what we're trying to make here. If anyone actually thinks that they can use things in the GUCK for real sexuality...well, they'd be thinking very foolishly.

The point I'm trying to make here is that we should not even bother to consider that anything here may "reinforce" anything among real people. That's completely beyond the scope of the GUCK to assume anyone is that foolish - at most, a disclaimer should be added to the beginning, but that's no reason to change an otherwise-perfectly fine mechanic.

I know people *SHOULDN'T* use the information to apply to reality, but I still find myself uncomfortable with a game mechanic that supports a common misconception.

I do agree that a disclaimer where it is presented would be ok.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Originally posted by Death By Surfeit
A) In a conception roll, a 1 is always a failure and a 20 is always a success. This stops imbalances, and holds true to the eccentricity of such a process. Perfect contraception (or conception) is solely the domain of high level magic, and is unavailable to the public.

Why? It seems that even a first level spell has plenty of power to provide perfectly reliable contraception.

C) Withdrawal: We don't have any responsibility to encourage or discourage the practice,

I was just worried about promoting the notion that it's completely effective. Encountering a woman in her 30's/4 children (3 due to contraceptive failures) who didn't know it didn't work was rather eye-opening. (Note, furthermore, that every relative of hers I'm aware of married because of pregnancy.)

proficiency on his partner that round, but receives a 20% conception miss chance. The Withdrawal manoeuvre increases this miss chance (see below).

VETERAN'S KNACK
Requires 3 Ranks Prowess – Withdrawal
May be activated before rolling for a conception miss chance from withdrawal. The miss chance is increased to 50%. If both partners employ this manoeuvre, the miss chance is increased to 90%. This ability is instantaneous.

I like this much better.

 

[Lucien Black]

I generally don't say much, just check in to see how things are coming, but I thought I'd point out that the Magic of Faerun (or one of the faerun books, I don't have them here at the moment) has a rather cheap potion that makes you sterile for 28 days... no conception chance.

Good job y'all!

Lucien

 

[Death By Surfeit]

VVrayven, it's good to hear from you, and I look forward to the fruits of your spell list work. To be honest, I've had a similar weekend .

There is clearly some discrepancy over the availability of contraception, but I feel it would best be addressed when we're discussing the spells and equipment sections - the core conception rules I feel are a reasonable enough compromise. I would suggest we move on to discuss pregnancy instead.

I’ve finally brought the interbreeding rules to term, and the rough rules are presented below for your reading pleasure and target practice. It isn’t as smooth as many of the rules we’ve composed, but was the best way I could find of handling the matter in a concise way – I felt it silly for the Guide to avoid the subject entirely. Read through, and tell me what you think; alterations, rewordings and outright rejections are welcome.

Phew.

DbS

* * *

INTERBREEDING
In the myriad of creatures found across the Great Wheel, few have the common blood necessary to breed together. The following rules provide rules on which humanoid couplings can bear fruit, and guidelines for other unions. They are by necessity intricate and indefinite, and DMs are advised to use their good sense when deciding matters for the group.

All relationships between races are given as one of three types: Related, Relatable or Unrelatable, and this governs the possibilities of conception and form of the child. As a unless two races are specified as Related or Relatable to each other, they are to be considered Unrelated.

Related
The two races share common blood, being related at some point in their distant ancestry. When rolling for conception, use the higher DC of the two races. The child borne of this coupling has an equal chance of being of one race or the other. The Related format applies to races with a clear halfbreed status (such as half-elves with elves) or those with such similar characteristics that it seems logical that interbreeding could occur.

Relatable
The races are distinct and separate, but there is the possibility of procreation. When rolling for conception, use the higher DC of the two races. Should the coupling bear fruit, the child will be a halfbreed, combining their characteristics, who is in turn Related to both parent races. The Relatable format applies to races who have defined halfbreeds between them (such as humans with elves).

Unrelatable
The races are too different for any possibility of interbreeding to occur. Conception checks between these races automatically fail, even on a natural 20. Potent magics may be able to spawn combinations of the two; if so, the child will be a halfbreed, combining the characteristics of both races.

Sidebar: Halfbreeds
In many campaign settings, halfbreeds are very much the exception to the norm. The rules above assume that this is not because of biological factors, but of social ones. Members of one race must overcome geographic segregation, social disapproval and not least differences in desires, emotions and lifespans that separate them from their partners in order to achieve a successful coupling, and this accounts for halfbreed’s rarity. The rules use the higher fertility DC of the two parents, but no additional modifiers: it is assumed that the more virile race makes up for any drop in interracial fertility, and so no further penalties are applied.

Subraces
Subraces of common humanoids, such as the myriad types of elves, dwarves and halflings are slight variants on their own race. They are considered Related to their fellow subraces, and follow the same characteristics of their species as a whole when breeding with other races. For example, aquatic, moon, wild, wood elves and drow are all Relatable to humans, and the child of such a coupling will always be a half-elf, regardless of which subrace of elf was involved.

Humans
Humans have far and above the most freedom in choosing a partner amongst hte humanoids; their seed is as flexible as their minds and culture. Humans are Relatable to elves and orcs, and Related to the offspring of such unions, half-elves and –orcs. They are also Related to halflings, the latter race having originated through the coupling of Humans and some lost species of yesteryear. Humans are also considered Relatable to fey (excluding sprites), producing elven offspring, or half-fey in the case of nymphs and satyrs.

Elves & Half-Elves
The many species of elves are considered Relatable to humans and Related to half-elves, but this is the extent of their ability to breed with other humanoids. However, elves are Related to many fey, with the exception of sprites, with whom they are Unrelatable; and nymphs and satyrs, with whom they are Relatable, forming half-fey. Half-elves are Related to both parent races, and may breed with feys as if they were humans (see above).

Orcs & Half-Orcs
Orcs are considered Relatable to humans, forming half-orc offspring. They may also interrelate with the bestial humanoids that take their characteristics, such as gnolls and lizardmen. Half-orcs are Relatable to orcs and humans, but no other humanoids.

Dwarves
Dwarven subraces are usually confined to their own kind, and cannot breed with non-dwarves. They are, however, Related to gnomes, having bred with some since-lost race to produce the race.

Gnomes & Halflings
Gnomes and halflings were originally the halfbreeds of a long lost race that spawned them, and are considered Related to their existing racial parents (dwarves and humans, respectively) and each other. They typically eschew larger partners, however, because of size concerns.

Yuan-Ti
Yuan-Ti employ vile alchemy to infuse snake blood into the veins of captives and their own race, but simple procreation is a ready alternative. Abominations are Relatable to humans and purebloods, spawning purebloods and halfbloods respectively, and Related to halfbloods and snakes. Halfbloods are Related to purebloods and abominations. Purebloods are Relatable to humans and abominations, forming tainted one (SS) and abomination offspring, respectively, and Related to halfbloods and tainted ones. Tainted ones are Related to humans and purebloods, and Relatable to halfbloods and abominations, forming pureblood offspring.

Nymphs & Satyrs
Nymphs and satyrs are powerful embodiments of masculinity and femininity, and this is reflected in their fecundity. They are considered Relatable to any humanoid, producing a half-fey child with the same gender as the fey parent. They may freely interbreed with each other, as they are of the same race.

Bestial Humanoids
Bestial humanoids such as gnolls, lizardmen, and kobolds are Related to the humanoid race and the animal or beast from which they acquire their characteristics: gnolls are related to orcs and hyenas, lizardmen to orcs and monitor lizards, and kobolds to goblins and raptors. Their humanoid kin generally spurn their company, and they in turn find relations with animals somewhat beneath them, so interbreeding rarely occurs.

Dragons
Dragons are relatively infertile (accounting for their scarcity) but their seed crosses many racial boundaries; they are considered Relatable to any other living creature, producing half-dragon offspring. They may not breed with other varieties of dragons, however. Half-dragons are Related to their basic and draconic race, and may breed with others as though a member of their non-draconic parent race, with a 50% chance that their offspring will also be considered a half-dragon.

Giants
Civilised giants (hill, fire, ice etc.) are Related to each other, but Unrelatable to other creatures. Ogres are Relatable to orcs and humans, producing half-ogre offspring. Half-ogres are Related to ogres, humans and orcs, but cannot interbreed with other humanoids.

Outsiders
Outsiders are infused with a quasi-divine power that allows them great discretion in interbreeding; those capable of breeding are Relatable to any living creature. However, outsiders embody unique concepts that cannot be easily tainted; they may not interbreed with other. Children borne of couplings with outsiders are the non-outsider parent’s race, but subject to the appropriate race. Those celestials and fiends capable of breeding produce half-celestials and half-fiend (MM) children, respectively. Other outsiders of strong alignment are treated similarly, but the child is subject to the celestial, fiendish, anarchic or axiomatic template accordingly (MM for first two, MotP for the others). Pairings with pseudonatural creatures produce pseudonatural children (MotP; NOT EHB rules). If an outsider does not fit in any of these categories, the result is left up to the DM, although the child will always be modified to Outsider status.

Half-Outsiders
Half-outsiders are more restricted in interbreeding, and follow the patterns of a normal member of their basic race. The children of half-celestials, half-fiends, celestial, fiendish, anarchic and axiomatic creatures are planetouched (MM & MM2) according to their celestial parentage if the child is a humanoid; otherwise, the divine taint fades and their offspring will be a normal member of their race. Children of a planetouched, if humanoid, retain their parent’s trait.

Deities
The deities can create races by their own hand, and so mundane procreation is of little challenge to them. They are Relatable to anything, including each other. Their children, rich with divine blood in their veins, are best represented by the application of the Paragon template (EHB), or Beast of Legend (SS) if the basic parent race is an animal or beast.

Other Creature Types
Other creatures are generally Unrelatable to other races, unless specified above. Potent magic arts may allow living creatures to father children with other races, in which case they are considered Relatable. Typically, couplings with animals form anthropomorphic creatures (SS), those with beasts form tauric creatures (MM2/SS), those with elementals form half-elementals (MotP), those with fey form half-fey of a sort, those with giants form larger creatures (MM size increase rules), those with oozes form half-oozes (SS), those with plants form wood element creatures (MotP), and those with vermin form insectile creatures (SS). Those with beasts and animals may produce new bestial humanoids, at the GM’s discretion. Those with aberrations and magical beasts are extremely erratic, and best left up to the GM’s devices.

Sidebar: Changing the Rules
As DM, you may exercise your discretion over all the rules above, changing them in accordance to your materials and campaign setting. If a rule contradicts something you’ve written into your campaign, sounds stupid or has adverse consequences, ignore the rules, or make up your own. If you have created or have access to material beyond those in WotC rulebooks, you may wish to extend the interbreeding rules accordingly. For example, if you have rules for half-dwarves, you could change Dwarves’ relationship to humans to Relatable. The GUCK offers a single extension of its own, in the form of the Half-fey template, so that nymphs and satyrs who would normally be Unrelatable (or Related) are instead Relatable to many species. Likewise, you may wish to restrict certain spells if you do not wish or are unable to accommodate the results in your game.

 

[Sorn]

DbS, good stuff. Let's just go with that and see what happens once we finish out Equipment and Spells.

The interbreeding section looks good to me. Let's move on to Pregnancy.

 

[Yair]

Interbreeding

I just had a problem with inbreeding, thanks for the rules Death By Surfeit. It appears my players have good timing.
By-the-way, my players mixed their (fey'ri = demonic-elven) blood with goblin blood, and it seems that of the common humanoids the goblins are the only ones that, for some reason, are missing from your list.
Also, I believe kobolds are reptilian by heritage, but this may be my own bias.
Don't miss understand - the rules seem great, and did help me decide how to deal with the situation. Thanks again.

BTW, isn't the Yuan-Ti not OGC? And the MotP et al sure aren't. I do not believe the project (which I do like) is quite legal under the OGL and d20 License, but perhaps you don't mind.

Thanks for the rules, and hoping to see the project completed, sometime,
Yair, the Bane of My Players

 

[Liquid Snake]

I think it's only Beholders and Mind Flayers that are not OGC. But soon enough a new 3.5-updated SRD document will be posted so we should wait and see that one before drawing any conclusions.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Some more thoughts on withdrawl and Veteran's Knack:

How about: It's totally effective at preventing ejaculation inside the female. However, penetration without climax still has a 10% chance of requiring a pregnancy roll.