D&D 5E Adventuring Days, XP & Leveling

Well, as I said, I’m switching back to handing out XP and, as DM, i have a certain pacing mind. So I’m trying to match the leveling to the pacing. And I’m finding the expected pacing to be too fast. Simple as that really.

There are naturally two ways of slowing down advancement: granting less XP, and increasing the XP/level thresholds.

Here I am just playing around a bit to derive some alternative thresholds... First notice that you can approximate the table on DMG p.82 with the following:

Easy = 50% XP
Medium = 100% XP
Hard = 150% XP
Deadly = 200% XP

Then, as a concrete example:

1) you decide that your plan is 10% easy/50% medium/30% hard/10% deadly, which yields an average 0.1 x 0.5 + 0.5 x 1 + 0.3 x 1.5 + 0.1 x 2 = 1.2

2) you decide you want on average 10 encounters before levelling up (at all levels)

3) take the "Medium" column from the table and multiply each XP value by 1.2 x 10 = 12 (in our example this yields: 600, 1200, 1800, 3000, 6000, 7200, 9000, 10800...)

4) add up the previous numbers to derive the new XP thresholds to level up: 600, 1800, 3600, 6600, 12600, 19800, 28800, 39600...

If you compare these with the PHB thresholds you don't notice that huge differences except for the first two levels (which in fact are designed to go faster), so this means that probably in this example we've picked some numbers that are actually pretty close to the designer's default.

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But really you don't need to do something that complicated at all... just multiply all XP thresholds by a factor of 2, and you've slowed down advancement by the same factor!

So far it's of course equivalent to slashing to half the monsters XP, but it has a couple of advantages:

- you can go further and set the pace differently at different levels e.g. decide that after level 10 it needs to be even slower and multiply the thresholds by 3, then after level 15 you multiply by 4

- you will still use the monster's XP in the book, so you don't risk forgetting to adjust them each time
 

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Bold emphasis mine. Doesn't that depend on the difficulty of the encounters?

I guess so, but I’d also say that judging the challenge at high levels is also difficult, so relying on just a few hard or deadly challenges in order to give a sense of struggle seems quite difficult. Each encounter has more riding on it basically.

Edit: Turning off autocorrect doesn't seem to make things better!
 
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Ha, I find this funny coming from you Capn!
Didn't address you...

If a feat, or subclass feature, or spell, is poorly designed (overpowered*) that diminishes enjoyment of the game. This has a real impact on the game. And it can be non-trivial to implement a fix everybody agrees on.

*) if underpowered it's more a disappointment or annoyance than a fundamental problem since you can just pick another feature

In contrast, experience guidelines are entirely divorced from the actual game and totally irrelevant to its balance.

You don't have to take my word for it. Try this yourself:

1) Assume WotC says you gain one million xp each time you defeat/overcome/bypass a creature
2) Now, ignore this "official" guideline.
3) See?


Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app
 

I think leveling is too fast as it stands. Took a just-got-to 13th level character to a con over the weekend and after 4 x 4hr modules (so ~16 hrs) am well into 15th level. It was about 2 mods (8 hr) a level. You don't want it too slow in organized play but this is lickety-split!

BTW, I really like the 'zero out xp when you get to a new level' approach. That's something I'll look into in my home game if the players like the idea.
 

HIya!

The problem with that sort of system is that it encourages playing like an idiot. The encounter was only easy, in your example, because the characters were acting competently and they expended resources in an efficient manner. If the world incentivizes charging forward without thinking, by making it so that those characters learn more and advance more quickly, then it leads to bizarrely divergent gameplay.

That's what I thought too, initially. But in play...this never happens. Generally speaking, the players want to keep their characters alive, otherwise they are going to be just sitting there at the table making a new PC and/or waiting for me to find at least some reason why their PC is in the middle of nowhere (or in jail, or on the 4th level of the dungeon, or in the Happy Hunting Grounds, or on the Isle of Dread, etc). When combined with what level new PC's start at when a character dies...that's ample incentive to not play 'stupidly' purely from a "came here to play D&D" perspective. Besides that, my players don't "play that way". They almost always make decisions for their PC's based on the personality/drive/goals/etc of the character...regardless of how that may turn out 'in the games mechanics' (e.g., a PC knows he's going into a dangerous fight and is offered plate mail...but the character has the 'urchin' background and hates anything heavier than studded leather; the player will still opt to keep his leather armour on his character and will RP the characters refusal for "all that clanky, heavy, restrictive metal stuff").

(oh, re: new PC's and level; in my games it's "Average PC level -2; maximum starting at 3rd"...so if everyone is 5th level or higher, your new PC will start at 3rd. Having the average PC level of 12, and starting your new one at 3rd is not easy! :) Oh, and that is regards to 5th edition; if we are playing our regular 1e/Hackmaster 4th game, it's level 1. Period).

Additionally...I've got a head on my shoulders with a brain in it. :) I learned LONG ago that the easiest way to nip any player shenanigans in the bud is to openly confront "bad behaviour". Everyone at the table knows that a player is making some decision purely for a power-grab, or to set up another PC for failure/difficulty, or for some other not-in-character reason, whenever it happens. A lot of groups and DM's won't call the player out on it because it sounds almost reasonable and they don't want to get into that awkward situation where you say/accuse something and it turns out to be wrong...so they don't say anything. Then, when whatever they were thinking the player's reasons for turn out to be correct...well, at that point it's now "too late" and the player can claim "Oh, sure...now you have a problem with it. Why didn't you say something two months ago when I [started said shenanigans]? It's not fair to say I can't now. I'd have to re-do a lot of PC stuff because I wouldn't have done it if I knew you'd react this way".

So, if a player then "rushes into combat buck-naked with nothing more than a small stick in his hand and a smile on his face", it's pretty easy to call shenanigans. Its obviously far, far out of character and that the player is only doing it because he figures his friends/party won't do the same, so they will 'carry him through' the fight, and it will be harder, so they will all get a bit more xp, so he can get those last XP's faster so he can level and get that cool new ability he was eyeing in the book. As I said...I have a head on my shoulders (as does everyone else at the table), and I (we) would call the player out on it right then and their. If the player truly was thinking in RP terms, and he can convince us as to why his character suddenly lost his marbles...ok then. Off goes the smiling, naked, stick-wielding fighter against the fire giant lord! :)

Bottom line: never was a problem in my campaigns.

^_^

Paul L. Ming
 
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1) Assume WotC says you gain one million xp each time you defeat/overcome/bypass a creature
2) Now, ignore this "official" guideline.
3) See?

That's all well and good, but you're forgetting a key aspect of this whole thing. The players. They know the XP required to level. I want to run the game at a particular pace. So I need to devise a functioning system that gives me the numbers I need for the players to level when I generally expect them to.

Coming up with silly numbers just to make some abstract point is no help at all. :)

I guess pacing the game is not a thing?
 

That's all well and good, but you're forgetting a key aspect of this whole thing. The players. They know the XP required to level. I want to run the game at a particular pace. So I need to devise a functioning system that gives me the numbers I need for the players to level when I generally expect them to.

Coming up with silly numbers just to make some abstract point is no help at all. :)

I guess pacing the game is not a thing?
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My opinion is that you need to get player buy-in with any changes that effect their characters. I loathe DMs who saddle up a bunch of restrictions without player consensus.
 

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My opinion is that you need to get player buy-in with any changes that effect their characters. I loathe DMs who saddle up a bunch of restrictions without player consensus.

Well I've got the buy in to switch to XP based leveling. But I don't think I have buy-in to radically change the pace! :)
 

I guess pacing the game is not a thing?

Another thing to examine is what will earn the PCs XP. That can impact pacing more than tweaking the XP tables. If, for example, the players know XP is gated behind overcoming combat challenges, then the pacing is determined by how often they can get into a fight and defeat the enemies. If I'm a player in that game, I'm going to plan on fighting as much as possible so I can level as quickly as possible. That's going to affect the pacing of the game and it's in the DM's control only to the extent that he or she can hold back on presenting combat challenges. If you want to tie advancement to the pace of a pre-determined storyline, then you're back to milestones perhaps or session/story-based advancement (without XP).

In my current game, I have little to no control over the pacing since it's a city-based sandbox and XP is gated behind overcoming combat and social interaction challenges. It's up to the players to get after it.
 

Another thing to examine is what will earn the PCs XP. That can impact pacing more than tweaking the XP tables. If, for example, the players know XP is gated behind overcoming combat challenges, then the pacing is determined by how often they can get into a fight and defeat the enemies. If I'm a player in that game, I'm going to plan on fighting as much as possible so I can level as quickly as possible. That's going to affect the pacing of the game and it's in the DM's control only to the extent that he or she can hold back on presenting combat challenges. If you want to tie advancement to the pace of a pre-determined storyline, then you're back to milestones perhaps or session/story-based advancement (without XP).

In my current game, I have little to no control over the pacing since it's a city-based sandbox and XP is gated behind overcoming combat and social interaction challenges. It's up to the players to get after it.

I’m coming to a similar conclusion, i think i’ll stick with milestone leveling for the rest of this campign. I’ll experiment with alternative approaches at the beginning of the next campaign.

I really don’t like the DM fiat approach of “you level when *I* say you level!” though.
 

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