The Little Raven
First Post
Vampire, on the other hand...
In high school, that game was like Spanish Fly.
Advice for Gamers in Society
- Thread starter Ulrick
- Start date
In high school, that game was like Spanish Fly.
Vampire, on the other hand...
It was mildly annoying when LARPing to have half of your fellow gamers off boinking and not available for advancing the plotline. Still, they were young and unmarried, so I guess they still had sex drives.
PowerWordDumb
First Post
How's your imaginary drow girlfriend doing again?
NerfedWizard
First Post
Mainstreaming RPGs:- A Plot for World Domination
[rant]
I have to say that I find it rather saddening that RPGs are not thoroughly mainstream. To me, the pertinent facts are simple:- PnP/tabletop RPGs are the 20th century evolution of traditional storytelling. The storytelling exercise has become interactive and is shared among the group. The credibility and consistency of the fictional world and the feeling of "game-play" or "challenge" are created through the use of rules and shared assumptions. The experience is entertaining and social and exercises both imagination and intellect. Live Roleplay takes it all one step further - to the 20th century evolution of [very] amateur dramatics, with a healthy dose of physical exercise. Forget for a moment the fact that the average LARPer has the acting talent of a damp squib:- even surrounded by mediocre LARPers, the average LARPer can easily suspend disbelief and finds the LARPing experience far more immersive and absorbing than PnP RPGs, which (though I have written several myself) must be admitted to be the poor cousin of Live Roleplay. In principle, PnP RPGs are more highly evolved than storytelling, and LARP is the most highly evolved and interactive form of entertainment yet devised.
If anything, the real surprise is that a form of entertainment so simple in its basic concept took until the 20th century to develop at all. With playwrights and storytellers in abundance, one can only imagine that it was the ancient and sinister Guild of Free and Illuminated Storytellers and Playwrights whose monopoly on all forms of narrative and dramatic activity prevented roleplaying from emerging into the spotlight. But seriously, how on earth could it take until the 20th century for such an obviously genius idea to take hold even on the fringes of society?
How could anyone prefer the dull, abstract number-crunching of the immensely popular Sudoku to the experience of roleplaying?
Why do people prefer the abstract exercise of soccer to the immersive, absorbing experience of light-contact Live Roleplay?
[/rant]
Answer:-mainstreamers never get into roleplaying in the first place because it's not sufficiently accessible. This has to do with the inherent characteristics of roleplaying games in general and of specific roleplaying games in particular, and also network externalities. If ALL their friends and acquaintances played and there were no stigma, the average joe would play too, without complaining. So, all we have to do is take over the world...
People play Sudoku because the basics can be explained in a minute or less. People play Chess because, though a little convoluted (but far less so than many RPGs), it is time-hallowed. People play soccer because all you have to do is throw a ball at someone's feet and they've started to get the basics, and the rules are few and mainly simple (off-side aside).
The same people who might watch and love Alien v. Predator or The Matrix may never get into PnP RPGs because it's just too much work for them. Whereas a video game can be instantly switched on, has instant appeal, is very easy etc.
I have a theory that, given the relentless Flynn effect, one day humanity may evolve to the stage where LARP is accepted as THE main form of entertainment; where PnP RPGs are regarded as acceptable when LARP is not practicable; but where Internet-based MMORPGs are [still?] seen as the haven of social recluses, geeks and introverts who lack the need for external stimulus. Perhaps in several hundred years' time, something rather like the Star Trek Holodeck will be the site of the recreational activity of choice - with in-character dialogue expected as "good form".
But in the next hundred years at least, we are unlikely to get to that point with polyhedral dice, or even with convincing quasi-medieval costumes and latex weapons.
Just as video games and online chat serve as an introduction to MMORPGs, so we have in paintballing and Laserquest-type games the perfect springboard for developing LARP. Ditch any gamist rules that can't be handled by your computerised chestplate/backplate and/or by blobs of paint and painful bruses (OK:- no grappling, for health and safety reasons), and just try to develop the storyline. As for PnP, how to mainstream it - ditch all but a modicum of rules. I think even Risus maybe needs to be toned down in terms of rules in order to generate that kind of mass appeal which can reach out even to Grumpy Granny.
I have a dream. One day, all dinner parties of the social elite will close with an invitation to retire to grounds not to hunt foxes, but to battle orcs. Those who cannot rise to the challenge of LARP and PnP RPGs will be castigated as knuckle-dragging throwbacks. Those who titter and giggle at our rubber swords and green face-paint will be assigned to labour camps for re-education. We may not reach the promised land in my lifetime, nor even in ten lifetimes, but we shall strive forward, we shall persist, we shall never relent. Gamers of the World Unite! Throw off your sweaty string vests. Wipe your brows. Cast out your 4th rashers of bacon from your daily fry-ups! Remember for all time that "my paladin is 18th level with Charisma 19!" is not a chat-up line. You who bear the torch now, you may be nerdish, geeky outcasts, but the banner you hold aloft is the flag of hope for the future! In eons to come, the Beautiful People will hail your memory, and give praise to the Blessed St. Gary! If it takes five centuries, or if it takes five millennia, whether on earth, or in some far-flung solar system, one day, Minions of Mine, O ye Masses who I call to my service in this sinister plot, WE shall reach the Promised Land!
[rant]
I have to say that I find it rather saddening that RPGs are not thoroughly mainstream. To me, the pertinent facts are simple:- PnP/tabletop RPGs are the 20th century evolution of traditional storytelling. The storytelling exercise has become interactive and is shared among the group. The credibility and consistency of the fictional world and the feeling of "game-play" or "challenge" are created through the use of rules and shared assumptions. The experience is entertaining and social and exercises both imagination and intellect. Live Roleplay takes it all one step further - to the 20th century evolution of [very] amateur dramatics, with a healthy dose of physical exercise. Forget for a moment the fact that the average LARPer has the acting talent of a damp squib:- even surrounded by mediocre LARPers, the average LARPer can easily suspend disbelief and finds the LARPing experience far more immersive and absorbing than PnP RPGs, which (though I have written several myself) must be admitted to be the poor cousin of Live Roleplay. In principle, PnP RPGs are more highly evolved than storytelling, and LARP is the most highly evolved and interactive form of entertainment yet devised.
If anything, the real surprise is that a form of entertainment so simple in its basic concept took until the 20th century to develop at all. With playwrights and storytellers in abundance, one can only imagine that it was the ancient and sinister Guild of Free and Illuminated Storytellers and Playwrights whose monopoly on all forms of narrative and dramatic activity prevented roleplaying from emerging into the spotlight. But seriously, how on earth could it take until the 20th century for such an obviously genius idea to take hold even on the fringes of society?
How could anyone prefer the dull, abstract number-crunching of the immensely popular Sudoku to the experience of roleplaying?
Why do people prefer the abstract exercise of soccer to the immersive, absorbing experience of light-contact Live Roleplay?
[/rant]
Answer:-mainstreamers never get into roleplaying in the first place because it's not sufficiently accessible. This has to do with the inherent characteristics of roleplaying games in general and of specific roleplaying games in particular, and also network externalities. If ALL their friends and acquaintances played and there were no stigma, the average joe would play too, without complaining. So, all we have to do is take over the world...
People play Sudoku because the basics can be explained in a minute or less. People play Chess because, though a little convoluted (but far less so than many RPGs), it is time-hallowed. People play soccer because all you have to do is throw a ball at someone's feet and they've started to get the basics, and the rules are few and mainly simple (off-side aside).
The same people who might watch and love Alien v. Predator or The Matrix may never get into PnP RPGs because it's just too much work for them. Whereas a video game can be instantly switched on, has instant appeal, is very easy etc.
I have a theory that, given the relentless Flynn effect, one day humanity may evolve to the stage where LARP is accepted as THE main form of entertainment; where PnP RPGs are regarded as acceptable when LARP is not practicable; but where Internet-based MMORPGs are [still?] seen as the haven of social recluses, geeks and introverts who lack the need for external stimulus. Perhaps in several hundred years' time, something rather like the Star Trek Holodeck will be the site of the recreational activity of choice - with in-character dialogue expected as "good form".
But in the next hundred years at least, we are unlikely to get to that point with polyhedral dice, or even with convincing quasi-medieval costumes and latex weapons.
Just as video games and online chat serve as an introduction to MMORPGs, so we have in paintballing and Laserquest-type games the perfect springboard for developing LARP. Ditch any gamist rules that can't be handled by your computerised chestplate/backplate and/or by blobs of paint and painful bruses (OK:- no grappling, for health and safety reasons), and just try to develop the storyline. As for PnP, how to mainstream it - ditch all but a modicum of rules. I think even Risus maybe needs to be toned down in terms of rules in order to generate that kind of mass appeal which can reach out even to Grumpy Granny.
I have a dream. One day, all dinner parties of the social elite will close with an invitation to retire to grounds not to hunt foxes, but to battle orcs. Those who cannot rise to the challenge of LARP and PnP RPGs will be castigated as knuckle-dragging throwbacks. Those who titter and giggle at our rubber swords and green face-paint will be assigned to labour camps for re-education. We may not reach the promised land in my lifetime, nor even in ten lifetimes, but we shall strive forward, we shall persist, we shall never relent. Gamers of the World Unite! Throw off your sweaty string vests. Wipe your brows. Cast out your 4th rashers of bacon from your daily fry-ups! Remember for all time that "my paladin is 18th level with Charisma 19!" is not a chat-up line. You who bear the torch now, you may be nerdish, geeky outcasts, but the banner you hold aloft is the flag of hope for the future! In eons to come, the Beautiful People will hail your memory, and give praise to the Blessed St. Gary! If it takes five centuries, or if it takes five millennia, whether on earth, or in some far-flung solar system, one day, Minions of Mine, O ye Masses who I call to my service in this sinister plot, WE shall reach the Promised Land!
I couldn't disagree more. You don't change someone's mind on religious positions by confronting them, pretty much ever. The #1 way to make someone dig in on such topics is to outright challenge them, really.
Now, if this is in a public setting, such that you are worried about the opinions of third parties and passer's by, you might be able to frame a debate such that you look better to the audience. But you are not going to persuade the attacker by defending yourself.
The Green Adam
First Post
Wow, this thread is depressing me.
First, I wasn't aware that conforming to the brainless, beer-guzzling, sports loving, meaningless sexual relationship social norm was my goal in life. Thanks for the heads up. I'll have to rethink all my experiences over the last 30+ years.
Second, gamers, or anyone with social interaction issues, could benefit much more from lessons in common sense and an understanding of the 'other person' then anything else. Most issues arise from our trying to force of interests and views on others who don't have the same excitement or drive about those interests.
As has been stated, we are aren't mainstream because it requires a certain kind of mind and mind set to do what we do and enjoy it. I may not like what you like, and vice versa, but I have no problem with you liking it and I expect the same attitude back.
Third, if you only knew how wrong the above, quoted statement was. Gamer Grrls are AWESOME!
AD
Gwen DeMarco: "Fred, you had a part people loved. I mean, my TV Guide interview was six paragraphs about my BOOBS and how they fit into my suit. No one bothered to ask me what I do on the show. "
Fred Kwan:" You were... umm, wait... "
Gwen DeMarco: "I repeated the computer, Fred."
I know this is a rant, and I take it as such, but I'll submit that while true, this does not in any way mean that Role-play should somehow supercede traditional storytelling. Quite the contrary - role-play is a sub-species with it's own little niche. The two story-forms serve separate purposes and needs.
Um, dude, not all larp has the physical exercise. There's tons of folk who do theatre-style stuff without the swords.
Might I suggest you read some books by Stephen Jay Gould? Your notions of evolution are outmoded. Evolution has nothing to do with progress. RPGs are different, but not objectively better.
To quote the nursery rhyme, "Diff'rent people have diff'rent 'pinions. Some like apples, some like onions." As if everyone in the world should somehow like what you do? How boring would that be?
I think you have the wrong answer, because you clearly miss the thing that actually differentiates RPGs from the other activities, the thing that makes our hobby qualitatively different from others - the playing of a role.
Simply put, playing a role other than your own is not something everyone does (or should) like to do, not something everyone is (or should be) comfortable with. This activity is psychologically different from playing chess, or soccer, and there is no reason to expect that everyone around you should care for it, any more than you should expect everyone around you to care for pistachios.
Not in and of itself, perhaps - but I did meet the woman who became my wife playing D&D.
Remember children, you should devote your life to cramming your true identity down everyone's throat. Get in their faces and talk to people at great length about what you're interested in, even if it bores them to tears. If they happen not to be talking about something you like, it's because they're mindless drones who should be forcibly dragged into your world kicking and screaming.
Okay, that was excessively sarcastic on my part, but seriously - not being ashamed of gaming doesn't mean you need to push your gaming into every conversation, which is what the OP was talking about. Conversation is about finding a common ground. For most people, that common ground does not include gaming; it's fine to probe a little and see if they're interested, but if they're not, let it drop.
I don't mind somebody asking me if I watch football, but I do get irritated if they go on and on about last night's game after I tell them I don't. It's the same thing.
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RPGs give a chance to people to be good at something creative regarding their group. Eventually roleplaying becomes a cultural activity. There are many serious problems around the world, roleplaying is not one.
We are in the information era and economy sucks big time. We still have not established the mechanisms or rather the actual infratructure that can help us take care of our societies on earth in respect to what we know or we are able to know. Due to this our human and non human resources are very badly managed. We still choose to go on by supporting the legacy of the previous era by investing in wars. This is where people should feel the need to become educated. Gamer etiquette or rather etiquette is not that important socialy anymore.
We are in the information era and economy sucks big time. We still have not established the mechanisms or rather the actual infratructure that can help us take care of our societies on earth in respect to what we know or we are able to know. Due to this our human and non human resources are very badly managed. We still choose to go on by supporting the legacy of the previous era by investing in wars. This is where people should feel the need to become educated. Gamer etiquette or rather etiquette is not that important socialy anymore.
