D&D 5E Advice wanted on Player Vs Player Situation

[ethandrew]

There have been a lot of excellent points and suggestions made in this thread already, but I didn't see anyone really dive into the mechanics of how this could potentially play out. So bear with me while I attempt to do so. What I won't attempt to do is step on the toes of any of the ethical or moral IG or OOC ramifications/justifications of such an attack on another PC.

If Harry is attempting to attack/murder a sleeping or otherwise distracted Derek, really what he's trying to do is a Coup de Grace. As far as I'm aware, there's no longer a hard rule for CdG anymore in 5e, but I've seen it played as an automatic critical hit. If Derek's necromancer survives Harry's critical hit, then you start from there. Obviously it gives Harry a massive advantage in the ensuing fight, but such is the nature of being attacked. To note, I would only allow this to fly if Derek's character was asleep. If Derek was not in fact sleeping but otherwise occupied, such as reading books and notes, I'd rule it's effectively the same as being attacked by an invisible creature: Advantage granted to Harry, but no auto-crit.

If I were to go down this route for this conflict, I too would want to include the Paladin. I'm not sure how rare 14 level characters are in your world, but a 14th level Paladin surely would be of notable power. His god might already know the importance this paladin and his companions are in the fight against Tiamat and might warn the Paladin of impending peril close at home. While not overtly stating "Harry is gonna try and kill Derek", it'd put the Paladin on high alert, who might try to ascertain the threat at hand, and in doing so might uncover Harry's plot. The potential here for the Paladin to intervene at any given time, whether it's the round prior to Harry plunging the knife or

 

[iserith]

Because by convention if not by explicit writing, 5e is somewhat rooted in both.

Lanefan

I don't know what to tell you. The rules give us the expectation. Whatever outside assumptions you bring to the table is on you. As I've said in another thread, doing so is at your own peril.

 

[Eltab]

OP:
You need to talk to both players separately, then together, then with the rest of the group.

Were I in your shoes as DM, I'd be saying NO to the assassination attempt. The DM's job is to enable everybody to have fun, not just one player - and not 'everybody except one player'.


Now, if you want to bring some in-campaign hints about it, give several of the PCs - including the Paladin as noted earlier - dreams / visions / &c. The gods don't have to be plain-spoken.
Specifically have the would-be assassin receive a vision and a message from Tiamat, reciting all the stereotypes about necromancers but with a silver tongue. (Surely a goddess will try to smooth her own path by eliminating or distracting the most powerful opponents?)
The would-be assassin might also see Bhaal calling him "an adopted son after my own heart." If the player cannot take that hint...

The Paladin could be raptured up overnight by Bahamut for an exposition on the things that cannot be seen by mere mortal eyes - dark hearts, treachery cloaked in self-justification, dealing with devils, dracoliches and the other necromancers (classic Cult traditionalists). Give him some helpful warnings about this problem, and some other plot threads too.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

Harry still belongs to his player. The only difference is that Harry is now operating solo (or builds another party around himself) and has made himself a bunch of rather powerful enemies.

A sane party member might well want to continue travelling with wannabee Judge, under the flag of "keep your friends close and your enemies closer". Also, it's easier to fight fire with fire and take out ol' Judgey if you know where he is.

Lan-"or on learning or the murder the party acting as judge jury and executioner could put Harry to a drumhead trial on the spot, find him guilty, and hang him"-efan

Agreed in that the party may decide on a rather immediate kangaroo court and kill Harry for commiting party murder.

Disagree on him remaining a PC if the party kicks him out, at least if I am the DM. If the party says "dude your out, you have 30 minutes to gather your gear and leave" then as DM I will tell the PC in question that they need to make a new character as I am not running a campaign that includes that character running around on his own. The character may remain his property to use in another campaign, but in this campaign world where I am DM that character is now an NPC who may or may not be involved with the party ever again.

The only way that character could becomes a PC again is if the rest of the party TPK'd and the party decided that their new characters are all adventurers that are traveling with the exiled rogue, possibly knowing, possibly not knowing, his history.

 

[Carlsen Chris]

So Harry plans to kill Derek the next time they stop for the night. I’ve decided to let it play out. They are mature players and I think they can handle this.

Do what you want, but in my view this is a big mistake. This kind of game is frustrating and pointless, and the player's in game motivation is shallow and absurd.

 

[Lanefan]

Agreed in that the party may decide on a rather immediate kangaroo court and kill Harry for commiting party murder.

Tell me about it. Long story leading up to it, but my very first character died this way; hung from an oak tree in the middle of nowhere.

Disagree on him remaining a PC if the party kicks him out, at least if I am the DM. If the party says "dude your out, you have 30 minutes to gather your gear and leave" then as DM I will tell the PC in question that they need to make a new character as I am not running a campaign that includes that character running around on his own.

Yeah, we'd sure differ on this one. I see the exiled PC as still being a part of my game world and my campaign; only I don't have to pay as much attention to it now.

Are you as harsh on PCs that simply retire form the party for whatever reason, rather than being kicked out?

The only way that character could becomes a PC again is if the rest of the party TPK'd and the party decided that their new characters are all adventurers that are traveling with the exiled rogue, possibly knowing, possibly not knowing, his history.

Again, harsh. I've had instances where a character booted from a party rejoined it later, in disguise, and ran with the group for a few adventures. To me this sort of thing is cool stuff.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

Tell me about it. Long story leading up to it, but my very first character died this way; hung from an oak tree in the middle of nowhere.

Yeah, we'd sure differ on this one. I see the exiled PC as still being a part of my game world and my campaign; only I don't have to pay as much attention to it now.

Are you as harsh on PCs that simply retire form the party for whatever reason, rather than being kicked out?

Again, harsh. I've had instances where a character booted from a party rejoined it later, in disguise, and ran with the group for a few adventures. To me this sort of thing is cool stuff.

If a character retires because the player wanted something new out of boredom or some other reason I would ask them what that character would likely do with their time away and think out a rough outline of their actions that would allow the player to reclaim the character at a later date.

As for your second comment, even with large levels of magic I think this would be nearly impossible. Comrades in arms that fought battles together, traveled for weeks, months, even years together are going to no each other to a level that would be hard to hide. How you wield your weapons, how you pack your gear, how you sleep, how you eat. A character would have to change so much to not arouse suspicion, especially since the DnD character system pretty much forces the new character to come in filling pretty much the same role they did before. To just say straight out the character deceived everyone would require a ton of hand-waving and could quite possible extremely anger other players who would argue that their character extensive Perception and Insight skills would have ferreted out the disguise pretty quickly.

Oh, and sure it is cool, for the player doing it, but probably not so much for the other players.

 

[Lanefan]

If a character retires because the player wanted something new out of boredom or some other reason I would ask them what that character would likely do with their time away and think out a rough outline of their actions that would allow the player to reclaim the character at a later date.

Cool!

Now why not do the same for the PC who is forced out?

As for your second comment, even with large levels of magic I think this would be nearly impossible. Comrades in arms that fought battles together, traveled for weeks, months, even years together are going to no each other to a level that would be hard to hide. How you wield your weapons, how you pack your gear, how you sleep, how you eat. A character would have to change so much to not arouse suspicion, especially since the DnD character system pretty much forces the new character to come in filling pretty much the same role they did before. To just say straight out the character deceived everyone would require a ton of hand-waving and could quite possible extremely anger other players who would argue that their character extensive Perception and Insight skills would have ferreted out the disguise pretty quickly.

Yeah, it's harder to pull off in a small party where every character has to fill a role - yet another reason why I prefer larger parties wherein some non-standard characters can be played.

And, I'm one of those DMs who in a case like this would assume success until and unless a player specifically said their character was suspicious...at which point the jig's probably up, sooner or later.

Another thing it's hard to do in a small party is to hide your real class entirely while functioning as something else (e.g. a Rogue-Druid multiclass telling people he's a Ranger).

Oh, and sure it is cool, for the player doing it, but probably not so much for the other players.

I've been one of those other players, and once I got over my facepalm moment on the reveal I thought it was excellent!

Lanefan

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

There have been a lot of excellent points and suggestions made in this thread already, but I didn't see anyone really dive into the mechanics of how this could potentially play out. So bear with me while I attempt to do so. What I won't attempt to do is step on the toes of any of the ethical or moral IG or OOC ramifications/justifications of such an attack on another PC.

Don't forget the multiple retroactive opposed Deception rolls Harry has to make, since he suddenly retconned his character's motivations (clearly the sign of a mature roleplayer...). His character has now effectively been running a months long confidence game with the entire party.

If Harry is attempting to attack/murder a sleeping or otherwise distracted Derek, really what he's trying to do is a Coup de Grace. As far as I'm aware, there's no longer a hard rule for CdG anymore in 5e, but I've seen it played as an automatic critical hit. If Derek's necromancer survives Harry's critical hit, then you start from there. Obviously it gives Harry a massive advantage in the ensuing fight, but such is the nature of being attacked. To note, I would only allow this to fly if Derek's character was asleep. If Derek was not in fact sleeping but otherwise occupied, such as reading books and notes, I'd rule it's effectively the same as being attacked by an invisible creature: Advantage granted to Harry, but no auto-crit.

All he gets is advantage on the attack, same as against any helpless target. He'd better have light or darkvision, otherwise the disadvantage cancels the advantage and he's stabbing them for base weapon damage. Of course, since bringing a bright light near a sleeping target tends to wake them, I'd grant the necro a perception roll, with disadvantage, to wake up.

 

[5ekyu]

Last time i had a player retire a character (wanted to bring in another) it became an NPC. Once or twice the old character made news and at campaign ends it was revealed (because he asked) that the character had taken up a family related side quest (that had been on the group mantlepiece when he left) after it had reached a crisis point) and it had drawn him into other things.

It was never a question that once the players sets it down it becomes an NPC for us.

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