D&D 5E Advice wanted on Player Vs Player Situation

[JacktheRabbit]

Cool!

Now why not do the same for the PC who is forced out?

Yeah, it's harder to pull off in a small party where every character has to fill a role - yet another reason why I prefer larger parties wherein some non-standard characters can be played.

And, I'm one of those DMs who in a case like this would assume success until and unless a player specifically said their character was suspicious...at which point the jig's probably up, sooner or later.


Another thing it's hard to do in a small party is to hide your real class entirely while functioning as something else (e.g. a Rogue-Druid multiclass telling people he's a Ranger).

I've been one of those other players, and once I got over my facepalm moment on the reveal I thought it was excellent!

Lanefan

Waiting for another player to say they are suspicious is completely unfair and biased towards the deceiver. The "player" is only receiving 1% of the hints that their character would be receiving from hanging out with Lenny in disguise. There are hundreds of non-verbal hints the player in disguise will give out. So when you face palmed you were being very polite, the reality is your DM was letting the deceiver get away with a very unrealistic situation.

Why doesnt the exiled character's player get a choice? Because the exile is their fault and as DM I am not dealing with the extra hassle of running it for the player. The character is gone, they are no longer part of the story and as such I am not going to do emails on the side or single player session so that said exiled PC can continue to adventure in the campaign I am DMing for everyone's benefit in some manner.

 

[Lanefan]

Waiting for another player to say they are suspicious is completely unfair and biased towards the deceiver. The "player" is only receiving 1% of the hints that their character would be receiving from hanging out with Lenny in disguise. There are hundreds of non-verbal hints the player in disguise will give out. So when you face palmed you were being very polite, the reality is your DM was letting the deceiver get away with a very unrealistic situation.

Actually it's not unrealistic at all. If those being deceived don't look for deception, or don't expect it, the deceiver by default has all the advantage. This is what makes Illusionists so much fun to play!

It also depends on the character, of course. In the example I gave the character's class was Assassin and she had already established in her backstory that disguise and deception were her primary tools of the trade (in other words, more a spy than a killer).

Why doesnt the exiled character's player get a choice? Because the exile is their fault and as DM I am not dealing with the extra hassle of running it for the player. The character is gone, they are no longer part of the story and as such I am not going to do emails on the side or single player session so that said exiled PC can continue to adventure in the campaign I am DMing for everyone's benefit in some manner.

Nobody is saying you have to do anything labour-intensive for the exile. A "session" in the local pub over a pint every now and then - twice a year? - should do; and what's to complain about an excuse to go to the pub for a beer?

You've reminded me of a story from my game a long time ago, though:

A big party (11 characters?) is far from civilization, en route to whatever adventure they're on, when it all blows up. Arguments, fights, weapons drawn, spells cast - end result is that several characters walk out on the party, turn around and head home. Meanwhile the rest of the party carries on.

But those who walk out don't in fact head home. What they do instead is secretly follow the party (which meant I did have to quietly run them in parallel) until a few sessions later the main party gets into some sort of mess they can't handle and the followers come crashing in to save the day. All - well, nearly all - is forgiven, and the reunited group soldiers on.

If I were playing Harry and got tossed, I'd be looking for an opportunity like this...

Lanefan

 

[JacktheRabbit]

Actually it's not unrealistic at all. If those being deceived don't look for deception, or don't expect it, the deceiver by default has all the advantage. This is what makes Illusionists so much fun to play!

Lanefan

There is a mountain of difference in an illusionist or assassin deceiving someone long enough to kill them or steal some vital item and actually becoming a different person in a close nit group that spends hours upon hours together every single day.

Good luck maintaining that deception when you go unconscious in combat. Good luck maintaining it when drinking. Are you going to give the exiled character that came back to the party all new magic items to replace the ones they have along with all their mundane gear? Long term deception requires all of this. Also the deceiver does not have ALL the advantages. This is DnD, its a world of shape changers, illusions, and mind control. Only the noobest 1st level party is going to just let a new adventurer into their midst with no thought at all as to whom they might be, what their motivation is, and if the party likes them. As players we often gloss all this over because "Bob" has a new character and we all assume it works out to some degree so he can travel with everyone. But in the campaign world he is being questioned, studied, watched extra closely (not just to make sure he isnt a danger, but also to make sure he is as skilled as he boasts to be so as to not be a liability to the party), and casually compared to the last member of the party that did the same work that the new guy is doing.

As for your other comment, if the party exiled wannabe Judge Dredd and he stalked them for days or weeks and decided to jump into battle at a crucial moment. That character is dead at the end of battle. Save me or not you are not trustworthy and you demonstrated it twice, first you MURDERED a fellow member of the party and when told to leave you stalked the party. Lenny has at this point proven himself to be a very dangerous liability, either he is killed, or best case if the party is high enough level and Lenny is not a spellcaster then he is teleported by the party wizard to the opposite side of the world so that he cannot continue to be a risk.

 

[5ekyu]

As for your other comment, if the party exiled wannabe Judge Dredd and he stalked them for days or weeks and decided to jump into battle at a crucial moment. That character is dead at the end of battle. Save me or not you are not trustworthy and you demonstrated it twice, first you MURDERED a fellow member of the party and when told to leave you stalked the party. Lenny has at this point proven himself to be a very dangerous liability, either he is killed, or best case if the party is high enough level and Lenny is not a spellcaster then he is teleported by the party wizard to the opposite side of the world so that he cannot continue to be a risk.

i would tend to agree at this part. After deceiving us for some time, killing one of our own and then when given exile deciding to not accept it... no way IMO many characters would be able to trust that character will play by the party rules. it may be a fairly classic trope but that doesn't make it reasonable.

 

[Lanefan]

There is a mountain of difference in an illusionist or assassin deceiving someone long enough to kill them or steal some vital item and actually becoming a different person in a close nit group that spends hours upon hours together every single day.

Good luck maintaining that deception when you go unconscious in combat.

Yes, this one's absolutely a risk.

Good luck maintaining it when drinking.

Yes, best if the "new" character goes teetotal.

Are you going to give the exiled character that came back to the party all new magic items to replace the ones they have along with all their mundane gear?

Don't have to. Replacing one set of mundane items with another is a day's work in town. Changing the superficial appearance of your existing magic items doesn't take much effort either - just some g.p. and an artificer looking for a few days work.

Long term deception requires all of this.

Long term deception requires great care, to be sure. But it can be done.

Also the deceiver does not have ALL the advantages. This is DnD, its a world of shape changers, illusions, and mind control. Only the noobest 1st level party is going to just let a new adventurer into their midst with no thought at all as to whom they might be, what their motivation is, and if the party likes them. As players we often gloss all this over because "Bob" has a new character and we all assume it works out to some degree so he can travel with everyone. But in the campaign world he is being questioned, studied, watched extra closely (not just to make sure he isnt a danger, but also to make sure he is as skilled as he boasts to be so as to not be a liability to the party), and casually compared to the last member of the party that did the same work that the new guy is doing.

Some parties are more trusting than others, no question there. That said, an exiled Assassin could disguise herself etc. and come back in a few months later acting as a Rogue, or even a lightweight Fighter. There may or may not be that direct of a comparison to "the last member".

As for your other comment, if the party exiled wannabe Judge Dredd and he stalked them for days or weeks and decided to jump into battle at a crucial moment. That character is dead at the end of battle. Save me or not you are not trustworthy and you demonstrated it twice, first you MURDERED a fellow member of the party and when told to leave you stalked the party. Lenny has at this point proven himself to be a very dangerous liability, either he is killed, or best case if the party is high enough level and Lenny is not a spellcaster then he is teleported by the party wizard to the opposite side of the world so that he cannot continue to be a risk.

Lenny may in fact be acting in the party's interests, if he jumps into a fight that he doesn't really need to and saves the day; and would certainly be able to truthfully put that case should he get the chance. Hell, for all that he could have just watched until you died, mopped up what was left of the enemy, looted the lot of you and gone home...

Lanefan

 

[Chris633]

I wanted to post an update. So I decided to move forward with the PVP. I checked in with Harry’s player and made sure he was clear on the ramifications of Harry’s actions if he followed through on this. I made a point of saying that this will likely result in Harry being retired as a PC either by death or exile from the party. I also pointed out that Derek would get every opportunity a PC gets to thwart the attack—same as if it was an NPC doing it. He said he was clear and felt that this is just something Harry would do. He also typed up a confession and explanation to the other PCs if he didn’t survive to do it himself. I also asked if Harry had been making any effort to disguise his feelings. He said Harry was not being subtle.

We play our game weekly online using Fantasy Grounds with occasional in-person games. So next I asked all the players to log in and each give me ten d20 rolls and I wrote them all down. I used those to calculate some perception and insight rolls as I have access to their character sheets. I then determined what each PC had seen and what they understood about Harry and Derek in recent weeks.

Finally game night comes. I started off by giving each player in private chat the information their characters had earned through their rolls. Derek knew Harry was angry with him but had no clue why. Our paladin saw the tension between the two, but wasn’t sure why. Our fighter saw the same as the paladin. Finally, our druid read Harry like an open book with both high perception and insight rolls. He saw Harry’s barely disguised disgust towards Derek and his experiments. He also noticed Harry touching the hilt of his sword when looking at Derek sometimes. He noticed Harry tracking Derek’s movements. He had strong feeling that something bad is close to happening.

The druid subtly used some of his magic as well as magic items to determine if Harry was being possessed or magically controlled. He then decided to keep an eye on Harry and tell Derek about his observations.

So I set the scene as they are concluding travel for the day. Thunder & lightening in the distant sky as the sun sets. I asked about how they were setting up camp and what precautions they are taking. They had fended off two previous assassination attempts by the cult of the dragon previously—one at night while they slept. So this was not unusual. What was different, is that I asked who what taking first, second, ect. watch that evening. And we roll-played through each person’s watch. So there was definitely tension that something was coming. When the paladin woke up Harry for his watch. He tried to get Harry to talk about what was bothering him. Harry said nothing was wrong and the paladin didn’t press. Harry’s watched passes uneventfully. From what Harry had told me previously, I expected the attempt to be during Derek’s watch. Eventually it was Derek’s watch and Derek took the opportunity to wake up Harry and confront him. Harry questioned him on his behavior. Derek offered explanation for what he had been doing and said he would give thought to what Harry had said. He also said that Harry had no right to judge the freely made decisions of his test subjects. To which Harry had no response. Derek let Harry go back to sleep and completed his watch. Harry’s player privately messaged me and said that Harry missed his shot and had lost his nerve.

The next day the party then began the finale of Rise of Tiamat. I don’t know if this will come back up again after the finale completes and we start on other adventures. But it is over for now. All in all, I felt like it went well. All the characters got the chance to shape how this encounter played out. And ultimately, the PVP didn’t transpire.

 

[billd91]

The next day the party then began the finale of Rise of Tiamat. I don’t know if this will come back up again after the finale completes and we start on other adventures. But it is over for now. All in all, I felt like it went well. All the characters got the chance to shape how this encounter played out. And ultimately, the PVP didn’t transpire.

Reads to me like you handled it pretty well. Congratulations!

 

[Blue]

and his character will become an NPC.

No. Harry still belongs to his player. The only difference is that Harry is now operating solo (or builds another party around himself) and has made himself a bunch of rather powerful enemies.

This is an interesting point - I absolutely agree that the character still belongs to the player. You can't take it away. Not that you shouldn't or whatever, but you literally can't. The best you could do is have an NPC clone of a former PC.

But the other side is that, with most of the tables I've played with, it's still a former PC. Most DMs don't have time to start up another game at a different time for a character that has intentionally split with his old party. And as either a player or DM I would protest the idea that the gaming sessions for the current game are split to regularly play a game focusing on only one character who's intentional action have split them from the rest of us.

Not saying the split character will never be player again - in a different campaign, or if the other players want to stop playing their characters and make new ones with the singleton. Just that it's the more unlikely of the results.

So while it's definitely still their PC, it's most likely to be a retired PC. Just retired by being kicked out of the party instead of retired by leaving the adventuring life.