D&D 5E After 2 years the 5E PHB remains one of the best selling books on Amazon

[Jester David]

Social Justice Warring I should say, not pointed at any one in particular.

Of course.

"Social justice warrior" as a term is a pejorative (according to Wikipedia and urban dictionary; the Oxford Englidh a dictionary instead labels it "derogatory"). Not just the contraction/abbreviation. Just FYI, since it is getting more use online, and more people are self-identifying as a SJW. The more you know...

(Plus, calling out "SJW" also immediately puts people on rage defensive, as it's singling out that group rather than both sides in the discussion; it's like going into a thread that has descended into political debate and asking "Is this turning into the Democrats thread or sinething?" Which I just find interesting from a semantic/ structural writing perspective.)

 

[Shasarak]

Ok, other than trolls and scam artists, then. Lol

and yeah, the need of some people to get all up in other people's space where they aren't welcome is really, really, obnoxious. I am the kind of person that will strike up a conversation with pretty much anyone, any time, but if someone isn't in the mood, it ain't my place to try and push that on them. That's why I don't even do that with retail workers, because I know sometimes ya just wish people would not try to tell you all about their boring day or whatever.

Thank the gods I don't have to deal with what women who work in retail or go to hobby stores as customers have to deal with, though. I'd hurt someone, first time they invaded my space or told me to smile, like I fracking owe them something.

But seriously, treating people who don't want to deal with your* need to have their attention as if they're shoplifters? That's just gross.

Ive fought my fair share of shoplifters. If you can't differentiate, look for different work.

*general you, not you, Mistwell.

From what you have said it is obvious that you dont know what you are talking about. Invading your personal space? That is just obnoxious to people that actually suffer real problems.

And you would "hurt someone" when you were shopping? Yeah, that is not normal at all. If you somehow think that is appropriate then you need to get real Professional help. Seriously.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

To get back on topic, I wonder how many re-buys there have been? Some of the books at our table have had some binding issues, one has totally fallen apart. Compared to the 3.x books they are not of the same quality physically. No way that is enough to make this the success its been but I do wonder how many have already had to replace their books.

 

[pemerton]

Is this turning into the SJW thread or something?

Following some posts by ad_hoc, I was talking about what sort of people the rulebooks tend to suggst are part of the gameworld, and whom the rulebooks seem to be inviting/welcoming as their audience.

Pointing out that the random harlot table makes the books speak to heterosexual men, and their sense of sexual gratification, rather than to women or gay men, seems pretty obvious stuff to me.

Pointing out that the move from "he or she" in 1st ed AD&D to exclusively "he" in 2nd ed AD&D makes the book speak more to men than to women, likewise seems pretty obviousl.

I'm surprised that either is remotely controversial.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

You aren't the only person posting in this thread so its possible I was not calling you out or anything.

 

[Jester David]

To get back on topic, I wonder how many re-buys there have been? Some of the books at our table have had some binding issues, one has totally fallen apart. Compared to the 3.x books they are not of the same quality physically. No way that is enough to make this the success its been but I do wonder how many have already had to replace their books.

That seemed to affect a small percentage of books, and mostly the first print run. Some of the sales are undoubtedly related, but unless every third person is having their book fall apart, that seems unlikely.
The book issues are a squeaky wheel thing: it seems larger than it is because a disproportane number of people complain. (Plus, the more copies of a book that are sold, the more likely some will be duds, even if the failure rate is constant.)

Especially since WotC will replace damaged copies for free. Not only is it less likely that everyone would rebuy a book that fell apart, but WotC would lose an incredible amount of money if they had to keep replacing PHBs. Especially since they include some perks and bonuses with every replacement copy. They'd almost certainly try and reduce the number of failed copies.

 

[Prakriti]

Pointing out that the random harlot table makes the books speak to heterosexual men, and their sense of sexual gratification, rather than to women or gay men, seems pretty obvious stuff to me.

Excuse me. Women are just as capable as men at roleplaying male characters and bedding random harlots.

 

[Hussar]

I've seen people from basically every demographic who are not trolls, but who are actively seeking to take offense, because they get addicted to feeling angry. It's not a huge percentage or anything, but it's out there and always has been. People get into the thrill of feeling angry and not having to feel bad about other people, so they go look for things they can take offense at.

I'd say someone who is addicted to feeling angry is a troll pretty much by definition. Certainly anyone who enjoys starting arguments simply for the rush of starting the argument is well into troll country.

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I think people vastly underestimate just how difficult it is when you do not feel welcome anywhere. Even when it's entirely unintentional.

Look, I'm NOT putting my personal problems on the same level as someone who might actually face real danger for their lifestyle. Certainly not. But, I can empathise. As was mentioned earlier in the thread, I live in Japan. Now, I'm a big guy. Over six feet tall and ... well... built for comfort.

I can go into any shopping mall in any city, go into any number of clothing stores and not be able to find a single piece of clothing that will fit me. I no longer shop in shoe stores. I walk into the store, walk up to the first clerk I see, ask if they have ANY shoes in my size and, 99 times out of 100, walk right back out of the store because they have nothing in any style.

It's incredibly frustrating and discouraging.

Now, once in a blue moon, I manage to find some store that caters to a larger clientele that isn't hip-hop fashion or people with builds completely different to mine. I find a store where I can actually buy underwear or a pair of pants or a shirt. And it's such a fantastic thing. I just feel this huge weight come off my shoulders that I can actually shop for some clothes and not settle for that one shirt from 1973 that's been on the rack forever that some clerk mistakenly ordered and they've never been able to sell.

Again, I'm not trying to say that there is an equivalency here. Obviously. My first world problem is nowhere near the level of some poor schmuck getting assaulted in a bar. And, in my case, there is absolutely no malice to ascribe. They aren't carrying my size because it wouldn't make any sense to cater to me. Fair enough. But, you cannot imagine how relieving it is to actually find that one place where my size isn't a huge disadvantage. So, yeah, I can imagine and empathise just how important that one paragraph in the PHB is to people. How important it is that you get images in the books that isn't just hulking white dudes and skinny white chicks in chainmail bikinis.

It matters. It's important. If we actually care about being as welcoming into the hobby as we like to think we are, it HAS to matter.

Oh, damn, who put this soapbox here.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I'd say someone who is addicted to feeling angry is a troll pretty much by definition. Certainly anyone who enjoys starting arguments simply for the rush of starting the argument is well into troll country.

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-snip-

Again, I'm not trying to say that there is an equivalency here. Obviously. My first world problem is nowhere near the level of some poor schmuck getting assaulted in a bar. And, in my case, there is absolutely no malice to ascribe. They aren't carrying my size because it wouldn't make any sense to cater to me. Fair enough. But, you cannot imagine how relieving it is to actually find that one place where my size isn't a huge disadvantage. So, yeah, I can imagine and empathise just how important that one paragraph in the PHB is to people. How important it is that you get images in the books that isn't just hulking white dudes and skinny white chicks in chainmail bikinis.

It matters. It's important. If we actually care about being as welcoming into the hobby as we like to think we are, it HAS to matter.

Oh, damn, who put this soapbox here.

Great points. Belonging is huge, and I don't beleive that any human is free of that need. It is, IMO, stronger than the need to survive, it is part of the need to reproduce, it is arguably *the* primary drive of the human psyche. When folks say no no man is an island, the will to belong is why they are right.

When a person is made unwelcome everywhere, when they feel like a stranger in their own land, that one paragraph, or those 4e halflings, or the scimitar wielding guy in the 5e phb, or female characters that aren't caricatures or sex objects, is like cool water in the desert.

 

[evileeyore]

Well, the point of the example was to try and suggest a place where you did not feel welcome and entirely comfortable, possibly even unsafe at an extreme.

"That's my secret, Captain: I always feel unsafe."

That we cannot do so is a perfect example of white male privilege.

Or, that I'm not emotionally frail. I'm willing to challenge 'conventional perceptions' and push through my own feelings of discomfort to get what I want, and wasn't raised expecting others to bow down to my me.