D&D 5E After 2 years the 5E PHB remains one of the best selling books on Amazon

[Shasarak]

No it's not.
We do it all the damn time. ALL THE DAMN TIME.

We wear pants. We don't pass loudly gas in public. We don't pick our nose and wipe it on a wall. We don't visibly ogle members of the opposite sex, push to the front of lines, take things without paying because we want them, or a billion, billion other small social courtesies or social actions each day. All done to keep society going, because we're civilized human beings and not chimps.
Yeah, it sucks holding in that awkward fart. It can even hurt. But you act like a grown up and wait until you hit the washroom, or at least pick an empty place. You go off to the corner feigning a sneeze, let fly, and hope the smell doesn't carry.

Why do you not just fart and say excuse me? Seems like an easier solution then going through some big song and dance about it.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

No raw data, as such, but a large enough body of anecdotal data can indicate trends, warranting further investigation.

And pretty much every type of nerd media that gets more inclusive sees a dramatic rise in outspoken fandom amongst whatever groups are better represented, which is probabaly a solid indicator. Not "proof", obviously, but a solid indicator.

Regardless, it takes nothing away from anyone to represent different kinds of people, and it certainly makes the world more real, more multi-dimensional, and more interesting, while making some people feel better about the hobby and game in general.

 

[evileeyore]

No it's not.
We do it all the damn time. ALL THE DAMN TIME.

Making an awful lot of assumptions there fella.

We wear pants.

I wear shorts by preference. I've worn pants when necessary (job safety). I've worn skirts and dresses when the desire arose (costuming).

If you meant "We wear clothes", then sure. Public nudity is illegal where I live.

We don't pass loudly gas in public.

Speak for yourself. If it's convenient you step into a bathroom or away from a crowd, sure. But otherwise? Fuuuuuuuudge it.

We don't pick our nose and wipe it on a wall.

That's just unsanitary. But I've seen far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far worse committed by your so called "civilized" people.

We don't visibly ogle members of the opposite sex...

Sure I do. Also members of the same sex and undetermined sex. If I think it's what they want, and face it some people dress to be [-]viewed[/-] ogled.

...push to the front of lines...

Huh. I don't, because that's a rule I prefer to live by*, but again, I've watched your civilized human beings do this, daily.

* But would break if I felt it were necessary.

...take things without paying because we want them...

Illegal. And this also happens all the time. I mean seriously? Have you forgotten about petty theft and data piracy?

Heck, just yesterday I watched (and reported and stopped) a 'civilized' human being steal a case of water from someone else's cart in the store I work in*.

Savages.

* It was already paid for, the victim had turned their back to attend to their screaming child and the barbarians lifted it into their cart and tried to rush off and go buy it themselves (the store had just run out of bottled water and hurricane Matthew is threatening serious damage on the state).

...or a billion, billion other small social courtesies or social actions each day.

Half of those 'social courtesies' you mentioned are illegal if broken, but I do see where you're going. Yes, we self impose certain restrictions on our behavior to be seen as upstanding members of society.

But make no mistake, those restrictions are self imposed, subjective, and nothing ill becomes of one if they are broken.

I know, I break them when I feel it's needed (or desired, or slightly too imposing upon myself to bother following them). Because I know who I am, what I am, and understand how those choices will be seen and acted upon (generally).

All done to keep society going, because we're civilized human beings and not chimps.

You do realize that nothing untoward happens to people who break these social 'rules', yes? They're still a part of society. The Social Standards Police do not haul them off to be judged in the court of Public Opinion.

Yeah, it sucks holding in that awkward fart. It can even hurt. But you act like a grown up and wait until you hit the washroom, or at least pick an empty place. You go off to the corner feigning a sneeze, let fly, and hope the smell doesn't carry.

Man, I am really, really, really glad I'm not you. As much as I fart? Life would be intolerable.

What's acceptable changes all the time. Standards change. We no longer refer to black people as "coloured" or people with learning disabilities as "retards" or refer to female coworker and "chick" or "doll".

Whoa, whoa, whoa! Again with the royal 'we'.

You either participate in the society and change with the times, or the world moves on and you become that cranky old racist grandpa.

Whom is still a part of society. Or do you think when he's injured the hospital workers ignore him like some casteless person in India?

That's completely ridiculous. If you go into a McDonalds and don't like how the staff treats you, you talk to the manager. If the manager does nothing, you don't start your own McDonalds, you just don't go there. If there's no other fast food place in town, then you just don't eat fast food...

Or if you're capable, you start a new restaurant. Sure, it's expensive, but no harder than any other small business to start.

Or do you think all businesses are already taken so there are no more left to be opened?

Which is what's happened so far: they don't go into stores or participate in the hobby.

Really? Half the gay people I've ever met were through gaming. The other half was Rocky Horror...

However, most gaming stores are not run like good businesses.

So why would you expect them to take good business advice?

To the fans it's more of a debate as it requires rethinking our behavior.

No it doesn't. Our behavior will already be adapting to the changes in societal lines. You know, because we are a part of society. Gamers are not some monolithic external (to society) group that acts outside of it's standards and practices.

The hobby we love or being able to act how we've acted until now?

I don't know how you've acted till now, but I have no need to change. I've always treated people with decency and courtesy, until they've proven to not deserve such treatment.

Why do you not just fart and say excuse me? Seems like an easier solution then going through some big song and dance about it.

No joke.

 

[evileeyore]

Just no point for it really in a game like this.

Which is why it showed up in only 1 edition of D&D and only in those OSR clones of that particular edition (and then not even all of them, I think only a few*).

This old chestnut gets roasted every time some Feminist or gender studies major thinks their argument needs a boost.



* It's 'less than half', but I'm not a fan of old D&D and it's clones so I could be very wrong on this figure.

 

[robus]

Following some posts by ad_hoc, I was talking about what sort of people the rulebooks tend to suggst are part of the gameworld, and whom the rulebooks seem to be inviting/welcoming as their audience.

Pointing out that the random harlot table makes the books speak to heterosexual men, and their sense of sexual gratification, rather than to women or gay men, seems pretty obvious stuff to me.

Pointing out that the move from "he or she" in 1st ed AD&D to exclusively "he" in 2nd ed AD&D makes the book speak more to men than to women, likewise seems pretty obviousl.

I'm surprised that either is remotely controversial.

I hate reading out rules and having to neutralize gender on the fly. Many boardgames are bad about this but FFG is terrible. Their Star Wars RPG rule books are "he" up the wazoo! And it's a quite modern publication for pity's sake

 

[robus]

Why do you not just fart and say excuse me? Seems like an easier solution then going through some big song and dance about it.

Great way to break the ice with a customer too!

 

[evileeyore]

Their Star Wars RPG rule books are "he" up the wazoo! And it's a quite modern publication for pity's sake

And it's [current year]! We should be past all these terrible things by now!

 

[Shasarak]

Great way to break the ice with a customer too!

I would not even dare open that Can of Worms!

 

[pemerton]

I don't understand how "frailty" has become part of this discussion.

It's not a sign of frailty to respond to some cultural artefact, at least in part, in terms of the extent to which it speaks to you or your life or your experience.

I am Australian, and my native language is English. That means that of the cultural artefacts that I encounter, more come from the United States than any other single country. Some of these - books, films, etc - seem to be quite unaware (whether explicitly or implicitly) that the picture they are painting of the world is not universally true, even among predominantly English-speaking societies. They present a certain American way of doing or thinking about things as if it exhausted the range of actual or plausible human responses.

This affects the way I engage with those works, and sometimes it affects my enjoyment of them. Sometimes it makes them objects more of anthropological curiosity than of aesthetic pleasure.

In the case of an RPG, the books for the game create a sense of the gameworld. Even if it is not explicitly normative - it may not explicitly rule anything out - it can make some things salient while apparently disregarding others. Sometimes the disregard can be so total that it seems to exclude alternatives by implication.

It's not a sign of frailty to respond to a RPG book, at least in part, in terms of this picture of the gameworld that it creates, and how that relates to one's own sense of what counts as an engaging/plausible/interesting/pleasurable fiction - a fiction which one not only has to read about but has to participate in via a particular character.

To the fans it's more of a debate as it requires rethinking our behavior. But it comes down to a question: what do we value more? The hobby we love or being able to act how we've acted until now?

For reasonable players I'm not sure it requires any rethink of behaviour at all, does it?

For GMs the situation is different. If they are presenting a gameworld based on some set of assumptions about what makes for an engaging/plausible/interesting/pleasurable fiction, and it turns out that they have players who have different expectations in some of those respects, then some change may be required. But it's not mostly behavioural change, is it? It's changing as an author.

In some cases, there may not even need to be active changes - if a GM is used to following his/her players' leads, then it may just be a matter of following those leads even when they take the gameworld into places the GM hadn't thought much about before.

 

[Bagpuss]

Just no point for it really in a game like this.

Like I said for human I don't think 3 to 18 is really that broad a scale that a modifier is needed, plus it is fantasy so why not have your character be the exceptional one.

But who knows you might have a race where the difference are far more distinct like the differences between male and female angler fish, where it would make sense. Still it would be based on sex not gender, you technically should have room for both on the character sheet if you are going to have one.