Again another example of CHA as dump stat

[Celtavian]

re

But what stats does an epic hero have? Did Frodo have 18's across the board? I don't think so. Yet, he's an epic hero, for he succeeded in bringing the Ring to Mount Doom. Your deeds, not your stats, determine whether you are epic. The other is just the power level - you can have a great hero with 25 Points Buy.

And to get this straight: I like my stats high, too - all these large numbers as bonuses to my rolls are very pleasant. But I know that this doesn't determine whether my character is a hero or not (remember: your average human has something like 15 Points Buy, with all 10's and 11's - compared to that a guy with Str 14 is pretty impressive)

Your confusing hero with epic, mythical hero. You can be a hero with regular stats, but you aren't going to be Persesus, Sir Launcelot, Arthur, Aragorn, or Beowulf on 32 points. At least no version I would call true.

Maxing at out 32 point buy shows the game designers haven't really a clue how a good a real human being can be much less one that is a Hero of Legend.

Back to the original point, it seems that module designers often use the point buy in the PHB which leads to characters with concentrated stats. You certainly can't make a tough NPC fighter bandit leader capable of challenging the party fighter in melee combat, while giving him the social skills and charisma a leader would have with the anemic point buy system in the PHB.

The only module designers I know of currently that don't give foolishly low stats to their villains is the guys who design modules for Necromancer Games. Their villains are statted like a powerful villain should be statted with the commensurate abiliites and skills necessary to lead an evil organization or demonic cult.

I still remember reading the stats on some of the main villains in City of the Spider Queen. Irae T'sarran was rather weakly statted. I beefed her up. I do that with most NPC's in the modules I run. The only NPC's I haven't had to beef up are those in Necromancer game modules. They are tough enough as is.

 

[Felix]

You can be a hero with regular stats, but you aren't going to be Persesus, Sir Launcelot, Arthur, Aragorn, or Beowulf on 32 points.

Yes, you are going to be able to be a Persesus, Launcelot, Arthur, etc. on 32 points if the rest of the world is working with 20 points. Similarly, the villians you fight will be equally imposing if they are statted out with 32 points in a 20 point world.

If everyone in the world has 18s in every category, then having an 18 ceases to be anything special. Compare the stats to the world's, not to what you think all heroes should have.

You certainly can't make a tough NPC fighter bandit leader capable of challenging the party fighter in melee combat, while giving him the social skills and charisma a leader would have with the anemic point buy system in the PHB.

You are correct here if you think that all skills anyone has are maxed out. But that is not neccessary; 4 ranks in Diplomacy and a +1 CHA is going to let a bandit convince his prey his side is not evil about half the time. (As long as the bandit does not immediately initiate hostilities.) So don't try to max out skills, give characters a smattering, and think of abilities on a relative basis, not an absolute one.

 

[DarkMaster]

Yes, you are going to be able to be a Persesus, Launcelot, Arthur, etc. on 32 points if the rest of the world is working with 20 points. Similarly, the villians you fight will be equally imposing if they are statted out with 32 points in a 20 point world.

If everyone in the world has 18s in every category, then having an 18 ceases to be anything special. Compare the stats to the world's, not to what you think all heroes should have.


You are correct here if you think that all skills anyone has are maxed out. But that is not neccessary; 4 ranks in Diplomacy and a +1 CHA is going to let a bandit convince his prey his side is not evil about half the time. (As long as the bandit does not immediately initiate hostilities.) So don't try to max out skills, give characters a smattering, and think of abilities on a relative basis, not an absolute one.

I agree with you, on everything. The normal folk is probably a 20 point build with a few level of commoner or expert, the best dealers in a city will probably have around 7 or 8 in diplomacy, So if you have a 14 level character with 10-12 diplomacy I would consider that quite heroic knowing that diplomacy is not his primary skill ability like the dealer.

I agree that in most Wotc modules the enemy are not even 32 point build, but like you say I adjust them to be around 32 points some a bit more others a bit less to create some diversity. Like I said in a previous post someone with 14 everywhere would be quite heroic in our world where the average skill is assumed to be 10-11

 

[mmu1]

I have a bigger problem with people constantly over-rating the importance of Charisma, and exaggerating the effect of having a Charisma penalty.

When I listen to all the nonsense spouted about how horrible an 8 Charisma is, I start to wonder what someone with a 3 or a 4 is supposed to be like... Or whether everyone with 12 or 14 Charisma in their games is an amazing diplomat, since apparently an 8 means you start wars and cause natural disasters every time you open your mouth.

 

[DarkMaster]

I have a bigger problem with people constantly over-rating the importance of Charisma, and exaggerating the effect of having a Charisma penalty.

When I listen to all the nonsense spouted about how horrible an 8 Charisma is, I start to wonder what someone with a 3 or a 4 is supposed to be like... Or whether everyone with 12 or 14 Charisma in their games is an amazing diplomat, since apparently an 8 means you start wars and cause natural disasters every time you open your mouth.

Well someone with strength 8 cannot lift more than 80 pounds above his head and 12 allow 130pounds almost double, if that can help you compare.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Poor writing on that general. If you lose a battle and can't soothe the troops, you lose your job. The troops will mutiny, and you must either flee or die.

Even evil characters can have friends and confidants, and when they die in battle...

Some of the best historical generals lost a lot of battles, but still kept their troops' loyalty.

 

[Evilhalfling]

It prolly depends on playing style - in high combat chr will always be a dump stat. In my game regional skills allow any class to pick up CHR skills and of 5 players only the monk has a 10 Chr and no one has less. Several have tried it before and not been happy with the consequences in terms of initial reactions, trying to reach the thieves guild, bargain with nobles, selling magic items etc. The party has a spokesman but in towns scattering is nearly inevitable.
The last campaign had the cleric building her own temple, The knighted paladin training troops, the Telepath (chr 19) leading a racial movement, and the elf (8chr) um ... as assistant to the undercaptain of the High mage (5 people in organization) he was less ambitious than others, but low chr means he wasn't offered responsiblity.

 

[mmu1]

Well someone with strength 8 cannot lift more than 80 pounds above his head and 12 allow 130pounds almost double, if that can help you compare.

So? Most people on this board probably can't lift 80lbs over their head. (assuming it doesn't have convenient handles and they have to pick it up off the ground first)

That doesn't mean they're all disabled, or geriatric, or so scrawny people stop on the street to point... or even necessarily non-fit.

But give someone an 8 Cha, and all of a sudden they're a cross between Urkel and a Uncle Fenster? Please. They're perfectly functional members of society that are slightly below average when it comes to one aspect of their personality.

Of course, part of the problem is that "strength of personality" is a very nebulous thing that, in real life, usually ends up being a combination of someone's mental and physical faculties, not some magical attribute entirely independent of them - and, frankly, not a very good choice for one of the six defining statistics of a character.

 

[DarkMaster]

- and, frankly, not a very good choice for one of the six defining statistics of a character.

I strongly disagree with that one. What would you replace it with? Charisma represent your ability to influence people around you. an 8 charisma character is able to live in society but has no charm he can enter when he talks people get bored, people will usually ignore his comment. Yes he can live in society but he has a hard time influencing it without using physical ability. Like any other character he can train to become better at those things (by taking skills) but will always be behind someone with higher charisma and similar training.

I started to game in pbp one with a sorcerer with 20 CHA and the other with 8 charisma. I try to roleplay them accordingly and I have fun with the two of them. The sorcerer can actually could actually sell the Grand Canyon to a resident of the place and the others has a hard time expressing his opinion in the group.

Concerning the 80 pounds you have to take into consideration that the average person can lift 107 pounds, and that 10-11 Charisma is for average person. Taking old measures from older editions for intelligence :10-11 was 100-110 IQ which is the average person now Int 8 is 80 IQ. Don't know if you know some people with 80 IQ but let me tell you that they are pretty dumb, they can live in society but barely, I used the same measured for Charisma.

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

For the people who've seen Happiness (by Todd Solondz (sp?)), how much CHA would you say Phillip Seymour Hoffman's character has?

If I start a story hour for the aforementioned adventurers (btw, their average CHA has dropped to 8.5), I'm going to call it "the CHA-as-a-dump-stat adventuring company".

AR