Again another example of CHA as dump stat
- Thread starter DarkMaster
- Start date
Abisashi said:
Under this system, a character with an 8 Cha gets 5 action points at 1st level and one with 18 Cha gets 10. (assuming you round 1/2 up to 1 at 1st level) That's a small difference? Especially when one might have a good Charisma simply because that's the best thing (mechanically) for that character?
FireLance
Legend
It's just the kind of DM I am. In addition to the atrocious house rule above, in my campaign, characters with low strength get penalties to melee attacks(unless they spend a feat on Weapon Finesse), penalties to melee damage rolls and penalties to skills such as Climb and Jump. Characters with low Constitution get penalties to hit points and Fortitude saves. Characters with low Dexterity get penalties to ranged attack rolls, AC, Reflex saves and a wide variety of skills such as Balance, Hide, Move Silently and Tumble. Characters with low Intelligence get penalised with low skill points and, in a spectacular double whammy, I assign them penalties to certain skills such as Craft, Disable Device, Knowledge and Search, too. Characters with low Wisdom get penalties to Will saves and skills such as Heal, Listen and Spot.mmu1 said:
Given that I penalize low ability scores so harshly, it's a wonder that I can find anyone to DM at all, eh?
Hardhead
Explorer
mmu1 said:
The thing is, everyone needs every stat for something, whether they want it or not.
Everyone needs strength because it sets your encumberance, and even a wizard has to make an AoO once in a while to avoid being grappled.
Everyone needs dexterity, because Dex gives both a bonus to AC and a bonus to your REF save.
Everyone needs constitution, becuase it gives both a bonus to yoru FORT save and a bonus to your HP.
Everyone needs intelligence, because intelligence gives you skill points (and bonus languages, but that's minor).
Everyone needs wisdom, because wisdom gives you a bonus to your WILL save.
Everyone needs charisma because... well, actually, everyone doesn't need charisma. Bards and Sorcerers need it. If you're going to specialize in social skills, or your DM allows the Leadership feat, then it could be handy. But most fighters and spellcasters can use it as a dump stat with no drawback whatsoever. But, with the above variant rule, it becomes:
Everyone needs charisma, because charisma gives you action points!
Thornir Alekeg
Albatross!
Enkhidu said:
You mean Phil?! I agree with you on him, although I might make him an 8 rather than a seven. By my thinking, an 8-9 CHA is your classic wallflower. He doesn't bother people, but he doesn't stand out either. I would put Cliff on the other hand with a 7. He doesn't seem to have any social grace and he annoys many people - but not to the point where they despise him.
BTW, I think despite the low CHA on Cliff, he has several ranks of Bluff that make people still listen to his stories and think they might be true sometimes.
jgbrowning
Hero
Heh, first time I've seen cheers used as a D&D analogy....
"Sometimes you want to go,
where everyone knows your class.
And they always save your...."
joe b.
"Sometimes you want to go,
where everyone knows your class.
And they always save your...."
joe b.
DarkMaster
First Post
Don't like action point but find that it is a good idea and it balances Charisma, if you look literature in general, Hero are usually charismatic people, so your ruling reflect that. Literature hero have that luck or I don't know what that save them from inescapable death.mmu1 said:
I personally uses heavily social skills and feels that non charismatic hero in my campaign are already penalised enough, plus I really don't like the action points concept.
Trying to fix Charisma so it has more of a combat effect is like fixing a bicycle so it works better underwater. It works just fine when you use it for what it was intended.
Charisma is not a combat stat, except for those classes that uniquely use it as one. But it does have in-game effects and consequences. In a role-play heavy campaign where combat occurs once every fourth session, the fighters will start complaining that their STR scores are useless. So instead of assigning actions points based off of Charisma (as if charismatic people move faster, or something), try encounters that PCs won't be able to solve using their physical attributes. Yes, DnD can be combat heavy. But it is in the RPG section of gaming stores. So if you're upset that your players treat CHA as dump-stat, try to remember what the RP stands for and come up with something different to throw at them.
And if they don't like RP challenges because Tandok the Dwarf Fighter has a 6 CHA, then pander to their desires for more fights. Or not. But don't blame the system for something that's not its problem.
Charisma is not a combat stat, except for those classes that uniquely use it as one. But it does have in-game effects and consequences. In a role-play heavy campaign where combat occurs once every fourth session, the fighters will start complaining that their STR scores are useless. So instead of assigning actions points based off of Charisma (as if charismatic people move faster, or something), try encounters that PCs won't be able to solve using their physical attributes. Yes, DnD can be combat heavy. But it is in the RPG section of gaming stores. So if you're upset that your players treat CHA as dump-stat, try to remember what the RP stands for and come up with something different to throw at them.
And if they don't like RP challenges because Tandok the Dwarf Fighter has a 6 CHA, then pander to their desires for more fights. Or not. But don't blame the system for something that's not its problem.
FireLance
Legend
Fair enough. Hardhead made the point for me as well, and much better, IMO.mmu1 said:
In any case, the difference between a Cha 8 character and a Cha 18 character is 5 Action Points. Assuming, for ease of mechanical comparison, you use it to add to a d20 roll, that's an average bonus of about 3.5 points you can add to 5 d20 rolls before you gain a level. The ability to choose which rolls you add to is an advantage, but consider:
A Str 18 character gets to add +5 more to every melee attack roll and melee damage roll (assuming 1-handed weapons) compared to a Str 8 character, and he probably gets to do it more than 5 times before he makes his next level.
A Dex 18 character gets to add +5 more to every ranged attack roll and Reflex save, compared to a Dex 8 character, and he probably will do so more than 5 times before he makes his next level, too.
A Con 18 character will have 5 more hit points per level, and get to add +5 more to his Fortitude save, compared to a Con 8 character.
An Int 18 character will have 20 more skill points at 1st level, and 5 more skill points every level after that, compared to an Int 8 character.
A Wis 18 character will get to add +5 more to his Will saves, Spot checks and Listen checks, compared to a Wis 8 character.
Certainly, giving extra APs for high Cha will benefit paladins, sorcerers and bards more than characters of other classes. But remember, a high score in Cha is a high score that isn't going to another, perhaps more generally useful ability score.
Consider also the other classes. If you're a fighter, you have some incentive to put a decent score in Intelligence if you're going for Combat Expertise and its derivative feats. You may also have some incentive for putting a high score in Wisdom to shore up your Will saves. But apart from wanting to roleplay a character with high Charisma, what incentive is there to put a high score there? The fact that I've heard so many complaints that Charisma is a "dump stat" indicates to me that there's something mechanically unbalanced about it.
So, the high-Charisma fighter now has something going for him. He isn't as strong as the bruiser with the 18 Strength, or as quick as the swashbuckler with the 18 Dexterity, or as tough as the brick with the 18 Constitution, but he has his edge: he's lucky - the universe is somehow on his side. The Powers That Be like him.
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