Spoilers Agatha All Along discussion

The forest on the Witches Road never looked real to me. It was a studio set, after all. Loved how Rio (Death) slashed the backdrop of the set when she exits her 'surrender the boy' scene with Agatha. That was another clue of Billy controlling everything, except Death, of course.
 

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MarkB

Legend
The question is whether what they've presented has changed all that much, or you have.
Given that this isn't exactly a controversial viewpoint, and that I haven't stopped loving their earlier movies, it's definitely a lot more of the former than the latter.
 

Thomas Shey

Legend
Given that this isn't exactly a controversial viewpoint, and that I haven't stopped loving their earlier movies, it's definitely a lot more of the former than the latter.

You may be assuming I don't think other people have changed too.

Let me clarify: I think there are current and recent Marvel films a lot of people would have been far more tolerant of ten years ago than they are now, and that's because in some ways their expectations have been set by those ten years. I think as such its not the movies that have changed, not really.
 

MarkB

Legend
You may be assuming I don't think other people have changed too.

Let me clarify: I think there are current and recent Marvel films a lot of people would have been far more tolerant of ten years ago than they are now, and that's because in some ways their expectations have been set by those ten years. I think as such its not the movies that have changed, not really.
But if those expectations had been raised by the previous movies, and the current movies were of comparable quality, why would they not meet those expectations? I don't follow your logic there.
 


Clint_L

Legend
So, consider Death of a Salesman. In the grand scheme of things, Willy Loman is not important. Indeed, that's his definitional characteristic. That he is unimportant is in his name, "Low-man". His unimportance, and his struggle with it, is what the play is about. In the end, Willy thinks the payout on his life insurance is more valuable than himself.
I've taught Death of a Salesman. A character doesn't have to be important "in the grand scheme of things" to be important in the story. In fact, Loman's unimportance in the grand scheme of things is the entire point of the play.

What matters is his importance to the story. Specifically, to giving it stakes and meaning. Considering that it is a canonical text, and he is a canonical character, I would say Miller was fairly successful in building a compelling story around Willie Loman's unimportance. Or, put another way, Loman is central to the grand scheme of things that matter in the audience's universe: the currently unfolding story.

His story, one of the classics of American theater, doesn't matter? The fates of ordinary people who don't have major impact on the world, don't matter?
You are totally missing what I am saying about the deaths of the characters in Agatha All Along. The ones who die essentially get fridged, and for what? They are there to die, to try to give the story stakes, but the story goes nowhere. I could care less about their importance in this fictional world, my point is that they are unimportant in this story, because the story essentially goes nowhere. It's all set-up.

Hey it turns out the coven member who survived had been originally cursed by Agatha - whoops! Which was dealt with in a couple of minutes and see ya. There's a meaningful character arc.
Yeah. Tell Lilia that. Oops, you can't, cuz she died. She sacrificed herself for others. No stakes at all for her, though!
No stakes for the audience, which is what matters. It's not like Lilia is a real person, and it's not like her death actually meant anything in the story. I mean, had the series ended after episode 8 you could have argued that she was there to teach Agatha about sacrifice. But in the end, Agatha sacrifices nothing - she just powers up.

The entire series existed to introduce a new Avenger (maybe; see Kang above) and make Agatha more like her comic book self. Mission accomplished, I guess, but it does so at the cost of giving the series any independent reason for being. Specifically, its own story. The whole series is just backstory. Which is true of almost all D+ MCU shows.
 
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Clint_L

Legend
It does seem to more than vaguely be a criticism of the strategy that has made Marvel an entertainment juggernaut, doesn't it? They started by making us care about the individual characters. After that, they brought those characters together, while still referencing events that had gone before. Finally, they let those stories run their course, while also using them to spawn new characters. This methodology has made them literal billions of dollars.
No.

The earlier films - up to End Game - range from pretty good to excellent, as far as tentpole action films go. Almost all of them have legitimate character stakes. In some ways, that first arc was indeed more like an incredibly expensive TV series in that the stories and characters arcs intersected, with a rich payoff, but everything was built around character development and every movie had a complete arc. If it was a TV series, it was more like a season of Buffy or X-Files, where most of the episodes were rewarding in themselves.

Since then, the focus is on franchise rather than character, and the stakes have become essentially meaningless. We know the multiverse isn't actually in peril, and with little meaningful character development, there's not much to get emotionally invested in. There are exceptions - Shang Chi and No Way Home come to mind - but since Disney mandated a massive increase in MCU content in order to support their foray into streaming, the stories have become increasingly empty.

Since you've mentioned box office: yeah. Massively diminishing returns in recent films, along with much weaker reviews and audience ratings. The current direction is fast failing them, and they've as much as admitted it. Surely we're not pretending that the current output of the MCU is anywhere near as good as what it was up through End Game?

I had to watch the final episode of Agatha All Alone all alone - my spouse had watched the rest with me, but when I told them there was one more episode, they went, "I'm good." That's how little invested they were in the characters.
 
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