Agile Shield Fighter and Two Weapon Fighting

[Bagpuss]

Agile Shield Fighter makes the attack penalties for shield bashing -2/-2

Two Weapon Fighting reduces the penalties for your main weapon by 2 and off hand by 6.

So assuming you have both feats would your attacks be at no penalty?

So 4th level Fighter

BAB +4, Main Weapon +4, Shield bash +4

Improved Two Weapon Fighting gives you another off-hand attack at a -5 penalty for a total of -7, off set by TWF to make it -1.

So at 6th level.
BAB +6/+1
Main Weapon +6/+1
(off hand) Shield Bash +6/+5

 

[Legildur]

I guess it depends on whether you consider "These penalties replace the normal ones you incur for fighting with two weapons" to include the reduced penalties from using a light weapon and/or the Two-Weapon Fighting feat as outlined on p160 of the PHB (table 8-10 in particular)?

Somehow I don't think it was intended for the Two-Weapon Fighting feat to stack, otherwise you have the benefit otherwise only available to the Tempest PrC - reducing penalties for TWF to zero.

 

[Darklone]

Agile Shield Fighter is a strange feat... I think it's only purpose is to allow shield fighters without high Dex to go shieldbashing TWF.

 

[Bagpuss]

Except if you read it, then you realise...

a) It applies to shield bash and another armed strike attack.
b) It actually stacks with Two Weapon Fighting.
c) Neither shield or "armed strike attack" needs to be light
d) It doesn't matter which is primary and which is off-hand.

If you take the Tempest class which reduces two weapon fighting penalties by 2 eventually. You could at 20th level...

have the following

BAB +20, Primary +20/+15/+10/+5 and off hand +20/+20 (ITWF)/+18 (GTWF)

Where the Primary would be your shield and the Off Hand your Bastard Sword.

If you read Two-Weapon Fighting.

Two-Weapon Fighting [General]

Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6.

Normal

If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. When fighting in this way you suffer a -6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a -10 penalty to the attack with your off hand. If your off-hand weapon is light the penalties are reduced by 2 each. (An unarmed strike is always considered light.)

There are the normal penalties which Agile Shield Fighter replaces, the -6/10. Two Weapon Fighting reduces the penalties for fighting with two weapons by 2 and 6. For an Agile Shield Fighter they are only -2/-2 to start with.

Hence -0/-0 with TWF, and when you get your Improved TWF attack you can reduce that by another 4, to make it only at -1.

 

[Bagpuss]

So no one has a problem with a sword and board fighter that has a better AC than a two-weapon fighter, comparable damage and a much better chance to hit with all his attacks?

 

[Darklone]

So no one has a problem with a sword and board fighter that has a better AC than a two-weapon fighter, comparable damage and a much better chance to hit with all his attacks?

I've had this problem since 3.5 started.

 

[Bagpuss]

Not really, since before ASF, using just TWF a sword and board fighter was either doing reduced damage by using a light shield or comparable damage and being at -4/-4 so being at a much reduced chance to hit.

With ASF they get the best of both worlds, good damage and actually a better chance to hit -0/-0 than even a TWF. And the disparity gets even worse with Improved TWF the second off hand attack being at -1 instead of -5.

 

[Mighty Halfling]

I read the feat this way: You can use a heavy shield and a one-handed weapon and get a -2 to hit with each. It basically wipes out the crappy damage stat you'd have if you stuck with a light shield. That's it.

 

[Bagpuss]

But that isn't it. If you read that feat, and then read Two Weapon Fighting.

ASF sets the penalties for TWF with a sword and shield to -2/-2, but TWF reduces the penalties for TWF by 2 and 6 (for the off hand). So because of the way they are phrased they actually stack. So if you have both it's -0/-0 and even better with Improved Two Fighting which gives an addition off hand attack at -5, (so -7 in total, but then offset by TWF to make it only -1).

Obviously the authors intention appears to be for ASF to be used instead of TWF, but rules as written they can be used together, for a very significant bonus. It's an exploit in my opinion, and so could do with an errata (not that you'll see one).

 

[jasin]

Obviously the authors intention appears to be for ASF to be used instead of TWF,

So just use it that way, then.

It's amazing how often people read the rules like automatons, and then complain that such a reading of the rules creates negative effects, and then complain that the books are have gotten too dry and lawyerly in style over the years.