Alchemist/Ranger Gestalt Build Help

[ChiefAaron]

Hi there. I've been browsing this forum for quite some time but never posted. I've run into a snag. Playing my first Pathfinder game and I'm tryign to build an Alchemist/Ranger using gestalt rules (the best of each class and all special features for both classes). The background for the game is an old school dungeon crawl. The entire game, levels 1-20, will take place in a massive dungeon. This means the party needs traditional roles filled and there will be a need for specialists.

Here's what I have so far:

My Ranger side is going to lean toward focus on archery, eventually taking the Alchemist discovery that allows me to attach my bombs to arrows. The favored enemy is Undead (good for dungeons) and favored terrain will be underground. I'm using the Trapper archetype and when combined with my Alchemist skills I currently have an 11 skill check to disable device/traps and it can be used on magic traps, so I've got that rogue ability covered for the party.

My real issue is how to advance my Alchemist. I WANT to focus on bombs. It sucks that they are so limited. My INT modifier is a 4 right off the bat so that gives me a decent number, and I can eventually take the Extra Bombs feat (we get one per level). The first level feat I selected, however, is Point Blank Shot. It's not the best but it's a pre-requisite for Rapid Shot which I really want for both bombing and arrow lobbing.

I'm not super interested in the mutagens because I hate taking any mental ability penalties, even temporarily. I'd rather focus on the bombs and eventually poisons.

Any advice you can share would be fantastic as this is my first time cheating a Pathfinder character and second time working with gestalt rules. Thanks in advance! I look forward to your expertise and suggestions.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Look at the archetypes. I don't like bombs and their limited use per day / small damage and area. Would you consider being a Vivvisectionist Alchemist (trades bombs for rogue SA and a few other things) and doing a TWF Ranger? Alchemist also has the Mindchemist arhcetype to boost mental at the expense of physical stats, if you prefer. They're also great at knowledge checks. UC has the Beastform or whatever it's called archetpye to replace stuff for some minor shapechanging goodies. Finally, if you don't do bomb throwing, Internal Alchemist is really cool. Doesn't help with anything particularly, but being able to hold your breath all day is pretty cool.

Don't do Trapper Ranger, it's a trap. Your spellcasting is a huge loss and the traps you get instead come a level later and suck. You have disable device as a class skill via Alchemist already, and you don't need Trapfinding to find non-magical traps anymore. See if your DM would let you just straight up trade Track for Trapfinding, do not sacrifice your spellcasting for it!

EDIT: Actually, you could still do archery as a Viv. Alchemist. It's just so hard to get ranged sneak attack in PF after the first round.

 

[SteelDraco]

I think a ranged character focusing on archery and bombs could be accomplished, and be quite fun. Here are a couple of things to think about, though.

SotS is right that the Trapper archetype sucks. All you get out of it that's actually useful is trapfinding. The effects and damage caused by the traps are minimal in comparison to any threat at the level at which you get them, and ranger spells are really quite handy. I can see a cool mechanical concept where you combine your alchemist bombs with the traps to increase their effects to something useful, but that's house rules stuff - it's what I would do for your concept, but you'd need to talk to your GM about it. As written, the trapper isn't worth it. See if you can find another way to pick up trapfinding - a replacement ability or feat would be the easiest way, but you'd have to talk with your GM.

Unfortunately, there aren't any alchemist archetypes in Paizo material focusing on bombs or poison. Not sure why - the mutagen mechanic seems to get all the attention for some reason. You'll likely be gong straight alchemist, then, which is certainly useful as it is. You'll obviously want to get the Explosive Missile discovery for your concept, but keep in mind it's a standard action. Full attacks are where damage comes from for an archer. Most of the time I'd expect you to deal more damage with a regular full attack than with one arrow + bomb damage.

Talk to your GM about how Fast Bombs (the alchemist discovery that allows you to make a full attack with bombs) would work with Explosive Missile. I see three options.

1. Fast Bombs allows a bomb to be attached to each arrow you fire in a full attack. This would deal insane damage and run through your bombs per day very quickly. I wouldn't consider this a viable option in a game I run for those two reasons - archery already deals a lot of damage, and this would deal a CRAZY amount of damage.
2. It allows you to attach one bomb to an arrow in a full attack. This is probably what I would do - you're getting some benefit, but it's not overpowering. This is the least accurate to Rules As Written, but probably the best compromise.
3. They don't interact at all. Probably the most accurate to Rules As Written, but not any fun.

If you want to keep the trapper idea, look into delayed bomb and the Remote Bomb feat. That lets you set a bomb for up to 1 minute/level and trigger it with an Intelligence check while you're in line of sight. The check DC is too high, as far as I'm concerned, but it's a cool and thematic ability for your concept.

Should you have any interest, I wrote up an alchemist archetype that focuses on bombs. Not sure the flavor would be right for your character, but you might find something useful. Mad Bomber Archetype Dylan's RPG and Nerdery Blog

 

[ChiefAaron]

Thanks so much for the responses. This is exactly the kind of feedback I was hoping to get. Whether I use any of it or not, it gets the questions flowing and that's always a good thing.

A couple of things. I'm not giving up bombs. My intention is to find a way to MAXIMIZE the bomb usage within the current rules. I understand that I may not be as powerful as I could be, but I accept that in favor of the roleplaying trade off of being a crazy bomb tossing psycho. Also, the main reason I chose ranger was for the archery and attaching bombs later. Also for the extra skill point boost because we are using gestalt. I'm not as attached to it since it's my secondary class and I honestly have no desire to cast spells, which is why I so willingly gave up the spells for traps.

Just wanted to clarify a bit for future responses so you understand the direction I'm heading.

BTW, your Mad Bomber build is great!

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Even if you do stick with bombs, I think sticking them on arrows via that discovery is still a bad idea. Attacking touch AC is much, much easier than hitting full AC. Still look into the Mindchemist, it lets you buff int and makes you super good at knowledge skills, I think it's the best archetype for a bomber alchemist.

The bomb damage is small, though. IMO, the best way to use bombs is for battlefield control with the discoveries that add effects to it (the confusion bomb offers no save, just reduced damage!). The ones to add cloudkill and stinking cloud are very good. I'd imagine it as selectively using bombs for battlefield control to lock down enemies and make it more difficult for them to reach you, and otherwise pelt them with arrow barrages.

 

[SteelDraco]

What's the level range for this game? Where are you starting at, and where do you expect to go?

If you're not attached to ranger, you might consider a zen archer monk gestatled with a mindchemist alchemist. There could be some fun synergy there in a few places, though you'd have a lot of ability score dependencies. Depending on what level you start out at, Dex might not be all that important - at 3rd level a zen archer uses Wisdom instead of Dexterity for ranged attack rolls. Perfect Strike could be used to make sure that an important Explosive Missile hits, since it's an arrow attack. As Stream recommends, the various cloud spells are very useful for battlefield control - but you can't shoot at a target inside one of your cloud spells, as they have total concealment. At 11th level, zen archers can spend 2 ki points to ignore total concealment for a round, allowing you to full attack into a cloudkill or stinking cloud spell - a nasty surprise for an opponent.

Assuming you're going ranger, though, consider the guide archetype. It's quite useful - you get to designate a specific opponent a few times a day and gain your bonuses from favored enemy against that specific target until they are dropped, rather than depending on the GM to throw your favored enemy at you. You also get some small group buffs as long as you're in your favored terrain, and since it sounds like you'll always be underground, that's nice and effective.

Besides the trapper, the other official ranger archetype that gets rid of spells is the skirmisher. It's... nothing special. Starting at 5th level, you get abilities similar to rogue talents usable a number of times per day equal to your Wisdom modifier + 1/2 your ranger level. Useful ones for you might be defensive bow stance (no AoO from ranged attacks for a round as a swift action), hobbling attack (free action when you hit with an attack, target's speed is halved for 1d4 rounds, no save), skill sage (free action, roll twice on a skill check and take the better one, must be a skill you have ranks in), or tangling attack (free action before an attack, if it hits target is entangled for one round, no save). Personally I think spells are a better deal, but if you don't want them you might consider the skirmisher. Heck, I practically view the gravity bow spell alone as worth taking the ranger spells. Alchemists don't get a lot of the spells that help out a ranged character - rangers get all of them.

I'm playing an archer now, and I personally don't have much trouble hitting most of the time. I routinely do the most damage in the group each round, even factoring in penalties for Rapid Shot and Deadly Aim.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

You would use the clouds to divide and conquer, picking off foes as they emerge. At least in theory.

If the game allows you to multiclass instead of just doing Class X // Class Y, a single level in Oracle can allow you to see through mist and fog just fine -- Water Sight revelation of the..."Waves" (I think that's the name) mystery. Similarly, 2 levels in Horizon Walker prestige class, which a Ranger pretty much automatically qualifies for, has this gem for Terrain Mastery: "Ethereal Plane: The horizon walker ignores the 20% concealment miss chance from fog and mist, and treats total concealment from these sources as concealment." So...you treat total concealment as regular concealment. Improved Precise Shot, which Ranger snags at level 6 (coincidentally the amount of levels you need to enter HW) lets you ignore 20% concealment.
Bottom line: Either method would let you see through your own cloud effects just fine.