Alien & Fate Join ICv2's Top 5 RPGs

Alien and Fate join ICv2's tabletop RPG sales chart, while Dungeons & Dragons and Pathfinder maintain 1st and 2nd places as usual, positions 3-5 always change. Cyberpunk, from R. Talsorian, has climbed from 5th place last time, to 3rd place. This chart is for September-December 2020, based on interviews with retailers, distributors, and manufacturers. Position Game Publisher 1...

Alien and Fate join ICv2's tabletop RPG sales chart, while Dungeons & Dragons and Pathfinder maintain 1st and 2nd places as usual, positions 3-5 always change. Cyberpunk, from R. Talsorian, has climbed from 5th place last time, to 3rd place. This chart is for September-December 2020, based on interviews with retailers, distributors, and manufacturers.

alien.jpg


Position​
GamePublisher
1​
Dungeons & DragonsWizards of the Coast
2​
PathfinderPaizo
3​
CyberpunkR. Talsorian
4​
AlienFree League
5​
FateEvil Hat Productions

As always you can see all the historical charts here.
 

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Definitely don't agree with that.

From TV Tropes:

And Wikipedia:
It seems difficult to argue, even if one is simply naysaying for the sake of naysaying, that either of these workable definitions for 'Space Opera' don't readily apply to the OT Star Wars.
TV Tropes is, now, in 2021, actively bad. Its definitions get worse literally every year. They long ago reached the point where they hinder rather than aid understanding, and half the entries seem to be more obscure webcomics than anything else.

And Brian "Helleconia" Aldiss wouldn't know space opera if it bit him on the nose.

You seem to be confused and thinking I'm saying SW isn't space opera though. I'm not. I'm saying it's not the best example. In the OT. It is clearly within the definition though, we agree on that.
 

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pemerton

Legend
If Star Wars isn't space opera than Flash Gordon isn't space opera. Which to me seems pretty counterintuitive.

EDIT:
I found this on the Wikipedia entry:

Space opera is a subgenre of science fiction that emphasizes space warfare, melodramatic adventure, interplanetary battles, chivalric romance, and risk-taking. Set mainly or entirely in outer space, it usually involves conflict between opponents possessing advanced abilities, futuristic weapons, and other sophisticated technology. The term has no relation to music, as in a traditional opera, but is instead a play on the terms "soap opera", a melodramatic television series, and "horse opera",[1] which was coined during the 1930s to indicate a clichéd and formulaic Western movie. Space operas emerged in the 1930s and continue to be produced in literature, film, comics, television, and video games.​

To me that seems reasonable enough. And Star Wars clearly exemplifies this - it doesn't get more melodramatic than Star "I am your father!" Wars.
 

I will also note that in at least the case with FATE and Alien, they both had a big push for VTT options in the last few months, making them accessible to the online gaming crowd when most needed. That probably helped a bit, too. Cyberpunk Red doesn't surprise me though because for one shining moment it was HUGE.

For Pathfinder, as much as old fans want to believe 1E content is driving it, most old PF1E fans were saturated with and had stopped buying new content long ago. I get PF1E aftermarket sales are more brisk, but it would be weird if the majority of current PF sales weren't from PF2E. Anecdotally I can only fine PF2E in my city, no one is selling PF1E that I can find.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
I will also note that in at least the case with FATE and Alien, they both had a big push for VTT options in the last few months, making them accessible to the online gaming crowd when most needed.
This is very much not VTT options, but books sold in hobby stores.
 

This is very much not VTT options, but books sold in hobby stores.
That is true, but what I meant was that the availability of options to play these games in VTT environments would drive physical book sales. My group, as an example purchased a lot of Alien books as a result of Roll20 offering support. I admit, I could be wrong, as for all I know VTT gamers stick with purely digital content, but the thought crossed my mind that there could be a link between this kind of support and physical product sales.
 

And Brian "Helleconia" Aldiss wouldn't know space opera if it bit him on the nose.

Would this would be the same Brian Aldiss who was a Fellow of the Royal Society of Literature and awarded an OBE for services to literature? The one who as well as being an accomplished poet was an artist with international reputation?

The guy who won a Hugo award for his history of science fiction? Let me repeat that -- he won a major award for a book specifically that discusses what space opera is.

I mean, it's up to you, but I think his credentials are pretty damn good in this area.
 

Would this would be the same Brian Aldiss who was a Fellow of the Royal Society of Literature and awarded an OBE for services to literature? The one who as well as being an accomplished poet was an artist with international reputation?

The guy who won a Hugo award for his history of science fiction? Let me repeat that -- he won a major award for a book specifically that discusses what space opera is.

I mean, it's up to you, but I think his credentials are pretty damn good in this area.
Yes, absolutely that Brian Aldiss.

I mean, the fact that you think an OBE means anything, or that being a fellow of the Royal Society of Literature is a positive thing in this context really shows the extreme problem with your thinking. You think prestige in the non-genre, even anti-genre society means he must be right for the rest of time? That's beyond ludicrous. This is the classic appeal to authority, but of an unfortunately ludicrous kind. He has many other, more relevant qualifications! So why go with those? The least relevant, and even somewhat harmful ones (esp. the OBE good god, they don't consistently mean anything at all beyond a willingness to be a member of the Establishment or at least associated with them). And why would him being a poet qualify him to define space opera? Bizarre!

Presumably you're referring to his 1987 book, The Trillion-Year Spree? I'm sure in 1987, it was relevant, and still is valuable as a history of SF up to that point, but things move on, and his definition of space opera was never great, not even for 1987, being overwrought and excessive one, because he was writing in an era where space opera had very, very recently been a pejorative and sneering term, and indeed many of his contemporaries still used it that way (or had it turned against them). I have no doubt his fellows at the Royal Society used it pejoratively. His definition seeks to narrow what can be considered space opera, because to him, it seems like it's still pejorative term or at least represents a low-brow sort of thing - he was very careful to construct it so any of his contemporaries could decide their work was not space opera - even when it clearly was by a more reasonable definition. His own work also would certainly and consistently escape being termed space opera, despite frequently being as lurid, glamorous, and over-the-top as any space opera, and if one is going to sneer at most space opera, one should certainly be sneering at Helleconia. Yet literary people didn't - as we see from his literature-world credentials, which you stressed the importance of (probably on the basis that it's all kind of miserable).

I should point out, I'm hardly ignorant of his work. I've read quite a lot of it. There are a lot of fantastic ideas, though also a lot of stuff that was looked dated-as-hell even when it was being written. He was incredibly talented and prolific, no-one can take that from him, and I'm sure his histories were good - it's very helpful to have histories like that showing how people regarded things at the time - but yeah I am going to go ahead and say he was not the right man to define space opera, and 1987 wasn't the right time to define it.

I should note as mean as I am to Helleconia, I love it really - Aldiss is really bad at certain kinds of writing but those ideas, and the sweep and the scope and let's just not think about the beaming love-rays business which... just no. But still, you don't get enough SF writers now who are willing to write about epic periods of time or humans-like beings in distant futures - or when they do, it can get a bit trite - yeah I'm looking you Noumenon.
 
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I should note as mean as I am to Helleconia, I love it really

OK, you think the opinions of other writers and sci-fi fans are trash, and apparently 1987 is a terrible year for defining space opera (slightly curious as to what you think the best year would have been -- 1990? 1974? 1800?) but please, please, if you are going to keep referring to one of his books over and over again, and if you love it that much, please spell it right.
 

please, please, if you are going to keep referring to one of his books over and over again, and if you love it that much, please spell it right.
This is fascinatingly petty and mean-spirited.

you think the opinions of other writers and sci-fi fans are trash
????

You think everyone who got a Hugo is great and everything in that book is right? I mean I doubt you do but that's the same logic you're employing.

what you think the best year would have been -- 1990? 1974? 1800?
Later would be better, because the pejorative usage declined over time. I thought I explained my point re: 1987 pretty clearly. It was still used extremely pejoratively quite frequently. That's why his definition is the way it is - it's basically an invitation to choose whether to label your book space opera or not (and a defence against accusations), not a genuine attempt to define space opera in a meaningful way.

Have you actually read anything by him btw? I'm getting a vibe that you haven't.
 

[edited post — on reflection, arguing merits of literary criticism of Aldsis’s writing in this forum isn’t on topic]

I have read Non-Stop, The Primal Urge, Hothouse, Report on Probability A, Barefoot in the Head, Moreau's Other Island, The Helliconia Series, Jocasta, the collections "Space, Time and Nathaniel", Starswarm, Brothers of the Head, and many of his short stories in other collections. I read some of The Malachi Tapestry, but didn't finish it. I have read several of his essays, but cannot recall where and when I look at his bibliography, many works ring bells but I cannot be definite that I have read them.

Aldiss can be dry, but STAN, in particular I would call out as well worth reading even now, many decades later. I do find his credentials and accolades deserved, and so overall would give strong weight to his views. In particular, I don’t find more modern definitions of space opera more compelling than his.

I enjoy both classic space opera (I have read the Lensmen series — the exemplar of space opera — several times) and modern space opera (I recommend Iain Banks to any who will listen). Modern space opera is better, I feel, but no more so than any other genre within sci-if, so the modern re-definitions that stress good writing and characterization don’t add much to me; they just say “we write better space opera now than we used to”.
 
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