Alignment conundrum (long), Yig stay out !

[Trainz]

I need your help answering this little problem that arose tonight:

Party: all good-aligned characters, one of which is a lawful-good cleric.

Situation: The campaign is currently mainly around a single town. There is a thieve's guild that they have dealt with before that sold them info and gear. At one point they had to exit the town but they were hunted down by that town's mainly evil authorities. The thieves have a secret tunnel that leads outside the town, so the party paid for passage through it. They were blindfolded, and led out. The rogue managed to peek at where the outside entrance was.

Later, they used the thieve's tunnel to get back into town. At mid point in the tunnel they were confronted by a lone rogue on guard duty with a wand of fireball. He asked for a password, which of course they couldn't provide, so a short battle ensued. They subdued him, took his wand, and entered the town.

They did what they had to do into town, and came back through the tunnel. This time, a few rogues (one of which is the previous rogue they confronted) waited a hundread feet inside the tunnel. They talked to the PC's, (rightfully) claiming that this tunnel is their own, that they used it without their permission, and that they stole the wand from them. They asked for compensation 500 gp. The players laughed at them. The lead rogue then asked them to follow him to the guild, to which the players laughed at and got their weapons out ready to engage the rogues...

... that's where the game stoped for this week.

Now given their past dealings with the guild, and their alignments, I wonder how I should deal with them if at the next game they kill the rogues (the rogues won't simply say "fine, you can pass..."). Should I penalise them alignment-wise ? If so, what do the rules have for punishment in this instance ?

Thanks for all input.

 

[Targos]

Their actions sound more chaotic than evil and I'm not sure how a lawful good PC should feel about these events since the authorities are evil. Punishing players with meta-game effects usually results in upset players. (like shifting their alignments or XP penalties) I'd recommend punishing them in-game. Bottom line is their actions have consequences. In one of our games we inadvertantly offended a dwarven paladin. He was the leader of his community and all the dwarven smiths doubled their prices on us. Here's an idea.

Beef the rogues up and subdue them. (saps work well for this) Once they are captured the guild can freely collect their fees. They might even turn the PCs over to the evil authorities. The rogues knew they probably would return through the tunnel so they had time to prepare . Perhaps they set some traps or there are some invisible rogues ready to sneak attack. They could have hired some help for this problem whether a fighter or sorcerer. (It looks like you will have a toe-toe battle that's going to happen.)

Worse case scenerio they rigged the tunnel to collapse. This could either trap them in the city or bury them.

 

[Li Shenron]

Definitely they aren't behaving good, but probably not really evil either, they are simply arrogant.

They have taken advantage from a partnership (something less than friendship) with the guild 3 times: when they used the tunnel without permission, when they subdued the guard and stolen the wand, when they refused to amend and attacked the party. Glad that they didn't kill anyone, and decided to subdue, but still IMO they have broken the gentleman's agreement of their partnership. The thieves had helped them once (although this could have been "just business" sort of help) and in a way they betrayed them.

If they had amended to the thieves party, and accepted to pay that repairment, I would not have punished them at all however. I don't think they have been evil or harmful so far, just unfair. If they kill the rogues and feel like it was a fair thing to do, then I would consider some sort of alignment issue - it's not a nice thing to punish however, but players should know there must be a point in playing good characters.

 

[Thanee]

That's not Lawful Good for sure.

I wouldn't penalize them (other than having the thieves' (<- ) guild after them from now on), but rather just remember that and if such occurances happen more often, start to change alignments.

Being LG does not mean you always have to act that way, but you sure should do so the majority of the time, unless you want your alignment to change.

This behaviour, I'd denote as CN, or even NE/CE when they just slaughter the rogues and move on, but one such occurance is not enough to change an alignment.

Bye
Thanee

 

[shilsen]

If their actions don't fit the current alignments, just shift their alignment to fit their actions. Remember actions determine alignment, not the other way around. There should be no other penalty. Of course, depending on the specific classes that are in the party, an alignment change may affect them adversely.

P.S. A single action shouldn't shift their alignment. Watch their actions over a period of time and determine their appropriate alignment.

 

[monboesen]

And for the rogues guild. Let them shadow the players and then inform the authorities of their activities and wherabouts. Thats a very good way of getting back at them without risking their own men.

 

[Trainz]

Thanks for all the feedback guys.

I was surprised by their actions, they usually have a good grasp of how to play their alignment. I'm quite a permissive DM, but this time I wan't to make sure they understand that there are some parameters in this game that simply can't be ignored without retribution.

And for the rogues guild. Let them shadow the players and then inform the authorities of their activities and wherabouts. Thats a very good way of getting back at them without risking their own men.

That is a very good idea. I haven't determined the rogues' stats yet (I have rogues stated-out of levels 1, 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18, 21...), but they know that the PC's are quite tough.

One idea I had was to randomly determine what power level the 5 rogues were, so as not to let my disagreement with the player's actions influence the outcome, something like:

Roll 1d6:

1- Rogues are level 1 and 2, easy fight.
2- Rogues are 3 levels below PC's
3- Rogues are the same level range as the PC's
4- Rogues are the same level range as the PC's
5- Rogues are 3 levels higher than the PC's
6- Rogues are level 15

In any event, the rogues will not fight until all rogues are dead: if the fight is really going bad for them, they will retreat and I will then use monboesen's suggestion.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

The only problem with turning the PCs in to the authorities is that the PCs know the secret location of the Guild's passage to and from the city.

Unless the Guild has the means to quickly close that off and create a new one, turning the PCs in might do more harm than good.

EDIT: "turning the PCs into the authorities" <> "turning the PCs in to the authorities"

 

[Thanee]

The rogues in there should be more powerful than what they think the party members are.

They know them somewhat and they came here to block their way out, because there was trouble before... anything else would be stupid. There are probably reinforcements hiding in the vincinity, too.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Nail]

I was surprised by their actions, they usually have a good grasp of how to play their alignment. I'm quite a permissive DM, but this time I wan't to make sure they understand that there are some parameters in this game that simply can't be ignored without retribution.

IMHO: More important than alignment "repercussions" are campign repercussions. The PCs have chosen to "short" the thieves guild. (That may be, BTW, because of the way you DMed it Trainz. No offense.) There will be, there must be remifications for this, both short- and long-term.

Short term the thieves will look to get even. Attacking the PCs is probably not the best option....they are built for combat, whereas the average guild thief isn't. Instead, hit them where it really hurts => their wallets. Not only can the theives "arrange" to have the PCs encounter higher prices, they may also get the PCs simply banned from some of their usual hang-outs (their favorite tavern, for example).

The theives may also have (gasp!) an accompished pick-pocket amonst them. (Gee, who da' thunk?) Sounds like they'll be missing some items/cash in a hurry.

You (the DM) should also be telegraphing a bit. Have them noticed they are always followed in town. The shadowers are just worthless low-lifes (or children!!! ), and they will say if pressed that a member of the Guild sent them. You should also have them notice they are getting stared at alot. Seek to unnerve them.

Then, have a thieves guild rep come over and "have a chat" in a neutral location. Lot's of talk about "misunderstandings, etc. Eventually, the rep. will ask for renumeration for the PCs past offences....and if they know what's good for 'em, they'd better pay up.

Lastly: don't have the rogues do battle in the secret tunnel. They should know by now the PCs are good at that sort of fight.