[alignment] How long is the "step" for a Cleric?

[Steven McRownt]

Let's assume Helm, paladin of Ao.

He is LN, and he is the Avatar of Obeyance.

Now, there's a cleric of Helm in my group that is playing his change of alignment toward Lwaful Evil. To think about the "step" rule, it should be okay. But it doesn't sound good that a cleric of Helm could be evil.

The question is, or better, tthe questions are:

1. How exactly is the rule of the one "step" distant form the god's alignment?

2. Helm (LN) will have cleric LG,LN,NN and LE or not?

Thanks in advance!

 

[mmu1]

Let's assume Helm, paladin of Ao.

He is LN, and he is the Avatar of Obeyance.

Now, there's a cleric of Helm in my group that is playing his change of alignment toward Lwaful Evil. To think about the "step" rule, it should be okay. But it doesn't sound good that a cleric of Helm could be evil.

The question is, or better, tthe questions are:

1. How exactly is the rule of the one "step" distant form the god's alignment?

2. Helm (LN) will have cleric LG,LN,NN and LE or not?

Thanks in advance!

If you start off as LN, then all the other alignments you mentioned are one "step" away. CG would be two steps (Lawful->Neutral->Chaotic), so would NE (Lawful->Neutral and Neutral->Evil). No more than one "step" on either of the alignment axis.

 

[Knight Otu]

2. Helm (LN) will have cleric LG,LN,NN and LE or not?

Actually, I believe a cleric cannot be true neutral unless he serves a true neutral god.

 

[The Souljourner]

You got it right - LN, NN, LE, LG.

Knight Otu, I don't know what you're talking about. The only restriction on alignment is that you have to be no more than one step from your god (kinda makes sense that Moradin isn't going to give spells to a chaotic evil Dwarf).

Other than that, being true neutral is no different than any other alignment.

-The Souljourner

 

[youspoonybard]

He's right.


Don't have my books with me, but look in the Cleric Alignment section.

In the standard pantheon, what, only Boccob and Obad-Hai can have TN clerics.

Something like that.

From the SRD:

"Alignment: A cleric’s alignment must be within one step of his deity’s (that is, it may be one step away on either the lawful–chaotic axis or the good–evil axis, but not both). A cleric may not be neutral unless his deity’s alignment is also neutral."

 

[Kae'Yoss]

No true neutral clerics for helm. Faiths and Pantheons lists LG, LN, LE as cleric alignments for Helm.

And sure make LE clerics of Helm sense. These are the ones who abuse the laws in every way possible: They bully people, always going to the extreme of punishments, they hide behind the rules. They'd betray their peeps to their superiors to lessen their punishment (which Helm did). I would not put it past them to slay their lover if she broke any rules (which Helm did).

Sure it doesn't sound good that helmites can be evil. It sounds evil. But it sounds right. Helm doesn't give a damn about good or evil. All that counts for him are his petty rules.

 

[cptg1481]

I say...

Just think of it like this...

From the SRD:

Good vs. Evil

Good characters and creatures protect innocent life. Evil characters and creatures debase or destroy innocent life, whether for fun or profit.

"Good" implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.

"Evil" implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master.


"Neutral" people are committed to others by personal relationships. A neutral person may sacrifice himself to protect his family or even his homeland, but he would not do so for strangers who are not related to him. People who are neutral with respect to good and evil have compunctions against killing the innocent but lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others.


Animals and other creatures incapable of moral action are neutral rather than good or evil.

Helm's DOGMA: (from Forgoten Realms setting pg 242)

Never betray your trust. Be vigilant. Stand, wait and watch carefully. Be fair and dilligent in the conduct of your orders. Protect the weak, poor, injured, and young do not sacrifice them for others or yourself. Anticipate attacks and be ready. Know your foes. Care for your weapons so they perform their duties when called upon. Careful planning always defeats rushed actions in the end. Always obey orders, providing those orders follow the dictates of Helm. Demonstrate excellence and purity of loyalty in your role as guardian and protector.


OK...being evil here is gona be tough. The way I'd play it is that the cleric has had an epiphany or experiance that leads him to be very militant in the spread of Helm's dogma. This could be played in line with the tyranny aspect of the LE alignment. I mean the worsip of Helm is the only true faith....join us or die. About the protecting the inocent crap, that applies ONLY to the worshipers of Helm...the rest are not inocent if they don't believe in the salvation of Helm's worship.

Likewise, putting the poor and injured to the sword is protecting them in a way. I.E. Commoner to Cleric - "I can't feed my family" Cleric ending the guys life - "OK now there is one less mouth to feed = mercy and protection. I end the suffering ot the injured so that they may be jusdged by Helm for thier life and rewarded/punished accordingly = I have ended their pain and am thier guardian. I mean after all LE people have the view that most people (other than themselves) are weak, incompetent, and need to be "shown the light".

Others are the sheep and the cleric is the shepard, and the shepard has responsibility to guard and protect the flock right.... That often means culling the weak from the flock to ensure that the only healthiest have an increased chance of thriving.

Also the flock is there for the shepard to exploit not vice a versa, he can sell, exploit use and even eat them (I wouldn't go this far wiht my flock of people, lest I be hunted down) as he needs them.

This is converse to the traditional role where the cleric is there to serve the people. I'd go crazy with this aspect...these sheep are here for me...(extract brutal and heavy tithes, even at sword point) I need gold to carry out Helms work. They complain becasue they are weak of faith and do not understand their role in Helm's plan like I do.... I put them down to make them strong....Give till it hurts!!! All for Helm!!!

Anyway, just make him more militant and brutal in his role as the shepard. Have fun with it. I know I would. I love evil PC's.

 

[HeavyG]

But it doesn't sound good that a cleric of Helm could be evil.

You're right, but that is only because neutral Forgotten Realms gods are actually good, if you check their ethos in the FR godbook. Sometimes I think that the authors thought that neutral meant "not nice" or something. Probably to make their clerics viable in good groups.

Ideally, neutral gods should be neutral, i.e. no closer to good than to evil, and lawful good clerics of Helm should sound every bit as weird as lawful evil ones.

I also think it weird that a LN god will have paladins. I mean, paladins should strive to emulate their deities right ? To be LN, a deity probably had to have done evil in the past, right ?

That just doesn't make sense to me.

Edit : Hey, just as I was typing about Helm, cptg1481 goes and post his dogma ! Right on !

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Re: I say...

Just think of it like this...

....


Anyway, just make him more militant and brutal in his role as the shepard. Have fun with it. I know I would. I love evil PC's.

Hm... twisting the dogma to your own ends takes intelligence IMO. Now intelligence is something that really doesn't fit with Helm worshippers. Intelligence won't serve you when you have to guard some room for 8 hours straight. It won't help you if you're to obay your superiours every order (some of these orders might come from an evil cleric of helm). So reconsidered and now think that evil helmites won't fit. They had to be to intelligent to be real helmites.
On the other hand, those with the most intelligence often get to the highest ranks. Because only the evil helmites have anything resembling human intelligence, they'll raise very quickly, and all the helmite leaders would be evil. Fear your watchman!

I also think it weird that a LN god will have paladins. I mean, paladins should strive to emulate their deities right ?

Not really. Paladins are champions for order and good. They're chamions of their gods, not reflections. Those that have to evaluate their gods' behavior are clerics. For them, their faith comes foremost. The worship of the other divine casters are colored by their nature and role - paladins as the ultimate champions of good and justice, druids as the defenders of nature, rangers as the wilderness runners.

 

[HeavyG]

Re: Re: I say...

Not really. Paladins are champions for order and good. They're chamions of their gods, not reflections. Those that have to evaluate their gods' behavior are clerics. For them, their faith comes foremost. The worship of the other divine casters are colored by their nature and role - paladins as the ultimate champions of good and justice, druids as the defenders of nature, rangers as the wilderness runners.

This still doesn't change the fact that Helm holds his paladin to a higher moral standard than he holds himself. Or, if you prefer, a different moral standard.

Presumably, Helm thinks that neutrality is better than goodness or else he would be LG. So why would he require, under pain of having all abilities removed, his holy champions to follow what is logically, from his point of view, an inferior moral code ?

If we follow your logic to its end, KaeYoss, nothing would prevent a paladin from following an evil or chaotic god. Why would Helm grant power to the champions of order and good if he isn't good himself, mmh ?