alignment question using the proverbian paladin (again)

[Nonlethal Force]

In order for an act to be a sin, the person must INTEND it to be a sin. Sinning is knowing and willful wrongdoing. If the paladin is trying to do good, and the result is bad, the act wasn't a sin. It was a Bad Idea. Your God cares about what's going on in your shiny paladin heart, not if you make a stupid decision. After all, stupid decisions are what mortals are best at.

I'd like to argue this point, and of course am going to put up front that I hope these contexts can be taken in a D&D fantasy world and not the modern context of Christianity/Judaism/Islam/etc ... cause that would be violating a board policy.

In D&D, I believe (Hence, this is just my opinion, not RAW) the rules are designed to function as black and white as possible, especially regarding the paladin. An act is either right or wrong, regardless of the intent. If a paladin is following a god that promotes non-violence, then killing something is still wrong regardless of whether they intended it or not. Especially in a game like D&D where there are rules established to make sure that death won't occur. You can use non-lethal force or something like a net and guarantee that death won't occur. And, of course this is in D&D, not the real world where there are no such guarantees.

I would rule that any paladin who follows a diety where killing an innocent is frown upon (hence, the vast majority of them, right?) is at the very least negligent. They were thoughtless. Misdirected. They were deomonstrating their imperfect humanity, elfdom, dwarfism, etc.

Are they still a paladin? Sure. Was the act wrong? Absolutely - regardless of intent. Should they atone (either through the spell or at the very least by an observable penitent action and change of approach towards violence? In my game, yes.

Hint: They might want to take the Justicar PrC or something along those lines that allows them to do nonlethal damage w/o penalties. That PrC even has a paladin multiclassing note attached to it.

 

[Piratecat]

If I was playing the paladin in question, I'd turn myself in for murder (manslaughter?) to local law -- or, barring that, to my own temple. I'd then let them judge me. If found guilty I'd take the punishment, and if found innocent I'd continue on with my life.

If I was on a mission that was too important to stop, I'd notify my church by messenger and turn myself in later.

Part and parcel of being a paladin is adhering to law.

 

[BiggusGeekus]

Is there anything else you can tell us about what happened?

It didn't. I was trying to figure out what would happen if a paladin killed someone accidentally with intent to injure. The reason was to set up a murder mystery. After some tweaks I ended up with this:

http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3546876&postcount=14

 

[Slife]

If I was playing the paladin in question, I'd turn myself in for murder (manslaughter?) to local law -- or, barring that, to my own temple. I'd then let them judge me. If found guilty I'd take the punishment, and if found innocent I'd continue on with my life.

If I was on a mission that was too important to stop, I'd notify my church by messenger and turn myself in later.

Part and parcel of being a paladin is adhering to law.

Perhaps paying for a true ressurection would also be in order.

 

[Warren Okuma]

Using strict adherence to the rules and assuming the minimum amount of DM interpretation and given a "generic" fantasy d20 setting:

A paladin attempts to knock someone unconscious to keep that person from going into danger. He accidentally uses too much force and delivers a killing strike that he is powerless to remedy as his spells are all gone for the day and his healing skill fails him.

Given this highly contrived scenario, what happens to his paladin status and alignment?

Non-lethal damage cannot kill as been said before. So if the Paladin does kill, yeah I'd remove his Paladinhood. Can't have Pals attempting to knock our good people by stabbing them until they stop moving with as sword and giving the lame excuse as trying to knock them out. Nope.

 

[frankthedm]

A paladin attempts to knock someone unconscious to keep that person from going into danger. He accidentally uses too much force and delivers a killing strike that he is powerless to remedy as his spells are all gone for the day and his healing skill fails him.

attempting to knock someone out with a lethal weapon uses the -4 to hit to strike to deal non lethal damage. If the paladin CHOSE not to take that -4, then his paladinhood is gone before the lethal blow lands for trying to murder an innocent person.