All D20 Is Broken

[Crothian]

I don't know any TRPGs that have a rules gestapo, so D&D, at best, is only as flexible as the next TRPG.

But as has been said, these other games don't change as people "gain levels". D&D does. That's the flexibvility that is being talked about here.

Saying "You can make D&D anything you want!" is kind of empty. You can make any system anything you want. What matters is what flexibility there is, not what there may be.

I am talking about the flexibility that is there. The thread has covered this with the level increases theat change the play style and offers new types of challenges. People have said this doesn't happen in other games, so D&D is then more flexible.

 

[I'm A Banana]

But as has been said, these other games don't change as people "gain levels". D&D does. That's the flexibvility that is being talked about here.

That's actually the *in*flexibility being talked about here. D&D makes you change. That's not flexibility. Change and flexibility are two very different concepts, after all. Counting from 1 to 100 is full of constant change, but it is very rigid and inflexible.

The thread has covered this with the level increases theat change the play style and offers new types of challenges. People have said this doesn't happen in other games, so D&D is then more flexible.

No, D&D can offer a more varied play experience. That's not flexibilty, though it is change (and variation). The ability in the system, in the books, to keep the same play style or change play style as you see fit would be flexibility. D&D offers that, but only with utter stagnation: no more treasure, no more feats, no more skill points, no more levels, no change in character. Forcing you to play different at different stages of advancement is quite inflexible.

 

[Crothian]

That's actually the *in*flexibility being talked about here. D&D makes you change. That's not flexibility. Change and flexibility are two very different concepts, after all. Counting from 1 to 100 is full of constant change, but it is very rigid and inflexible.

D&D does not make one change. I posted on this already, the game does not force anyone to change. The poeple are more important and all that. You even agreed claiming "I don't know any TRPGs that have a rules gestapo".

THe flexibility is that one group can play a low level game and enjoy that while another can play a high level game which is going to be completely different and enjoy that. Other systems don't have these types of changes. That is flexibility; havign one ghame that can suppoirt and change over the course of the many levels the PCs can gain.

 

[el-remmen]

I think this impression comes from two things:

1) A lot people thing long combats are boring - and I think it is b/c they do some variation of the old "You miss", "it hits", "you hit", "it misses" etc. . . kind of combat

2) the DM/Players is/are not taking advantage of the environment and the inherent drama of the situation to make it more fun and more strategic of a fight.

Environment is super important to all the great fight scenes in nearly every movie or book we have come to love and are trying to emulate.

Standing there and getting full attacks on each other is only always the best option when there is a level playing. . . uh, fighting field - but if your enemy can get cover or concealment, or get above you, or threaten innocents, or has some piece of information needed by the PCs and can't be killed but fights and moves in a reckless almost suicidal manner (so you have to try to defeat and save him at the same time), and a ton more examples I can give (hmmm, maybe I should write a PDF product ) the fights are going to be more involved, a lot longer and a lot more fun.

Sure sometimes, some fights are gonna be a straight up exchange of blows, it can't be avoided - but that certainly should not be usual case.

If you check out my story hour (see sig) you will see the following kinds of fights:

- a battle in a sewage drainage chamber beneath the complex of a huge tribe of orcs, with unseen pitfalls and explosive gas and vicious orc toddlers.

- a running battle to escape a collapsing subterranean necropolis

- a hit and run/hide fight against a psionic manticore amid the ruins of an old mansion on a hill.

- a four way battle between the above manticore, a powerful evil sorcerer, a wizard of unclear allegiances, and some town guards who were escorting the majority of the party weapon and armorless, chained to the back of a wagon to seek the king's justice

I think you get the point

 

[Odhanan]

Ah, maybe BRP is the right system here. Atack - parry - attack - parry - attack - parry...
The winner is whose weapon breaks last .

Funny. I had some of my best fantasy RPG combats using the BRP. That's sure that if your group is happy with "I attack", "I parry" ad nauseam and you don't like that, you wouldn't be happy with your fellow players, but don't blame it on the system please. There are enough guys posting that d20 sucks for similar reasons. :\

 

[Turjan]

Funny. I had some of my best fantasy RPG combats using the BRP. That's sure that if your group is happy with "I attack", "I parry" ad nauseam and you don't like that, you wouldn't be happy with your fellow players, but don't blame it on the system please. There are enough guys posting that d20 sucks for similar reasons. :\

I did not blame anything, neither did I say anything about being happy or unhappy with BRP. The original poster wanted his high level fights to last longer, and BRP makes this easily happen. As Wayne Ligon said, you just have to pit two fighters with high attack and high defense ratings against each other. If you want to have hour long saber duels with lots of parrying, that's the way to go . How you describe those encounters is also something that's up to the players and was not topic of my post. Mechanics are one thing, flavour something other.

You may have guessed properly, though, that this endless attack-parry cycle under certain not so exotic circumstances is one of the pitfalls of BRP I don't really care for. But, as you probably know, one man's meat is the other man's poison .

 

[Turjan]

That's actually a failing of pretty much every single Star Wars game in existance. By its very nature a system based on the SW films will eventually boil down to "You either use the Force or you are Window Dressing".

Just a touch irksome.

Principally, that's okay. But the balance problems are somewhat too obvious here. Just compare a Tech Specialist with a Jedi Consular. It would be nice if the Tech Specialist would be better with at least something. Or look at the critical range table for weapons. There's only one weapon with a 19-20 range. Even if you leave the Jedi classes out, it's still obvious.

It seems that the main design goal was to make pretty exact replicas of certain stereotypes, and balance was not part of that goal.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

D&D does not make one change. I posted on this already, the game does not force anyone to change. The poeple are more important and all that. You even agreed claiming "I don't know any TRPGs that have a rules gestapo".

THe flexibility is that one group can play a low level game and enjoy that while another can play a high level game which is going to be completely different and enjoy that. Other systems don't have these types of changes. That is flexibility; havign one ghame that can suppoirt and change over the course of the many levels the PCs can gain.

D&D forces you to change if you want to mechanically progress to any meaningful degree. If you're content to play 1-shots or mini-campaigns, or to level once a year, yes, D&D offers unparalleled flexibility.

If you want to progress a group of characters from low levels to high levels, you must either change your style of play or make extensive and sweeping changes to the rules.

 

[WizarDru]

This just in: multi-player roleplaying games fail to accurately model narrative fiction and movies! Also, tune in for our amazing report about how RPGs fail to accurately model social, economic or political realities! Plus, hear true confessions from actual gamers who, and we swear we're not making this up....don't care!!! Film at 11!

WRPG News! Be there or Roll for Init!

 

[Crothian]

If you want to progress a group of characters from low levels to high levels, you must either change your style of play or make extensive and sweeping changes to the rules.

Not really. I feel my games play style remain constant through out. I have few house rules and things work well. I think the DM though needs to plan for the higher levels and keep things going in the same style and work at it. Agian, as I've been saying all thread the game does not force people to do anything and that includes change your style as the campaign goes on. Changing the style miught be the path of least resistance though, perhaps that's why so many people think they have to.