alt.Sorcerer... drastic

[DreamChaser]

I'd really prefer to avoid non-open content. The Sculpt Self also sounds like something that could be left to normal feat-taking - it doesn't need to be built into the class, unless a GM decides that it's good for their world.

This is actually open content. The OGL stuff is listed at the end of the article.

DC

 

[seasong]

I'm leaving sculpt self off of the formal listing, but I don't think it would unbalance the class (individual racial abilities bought with XP might, but that's a whole other issue).

Really, sculpt self looks like it would make a good prestige class ability, rather than something for the core class - a mage who drinks so deeply of magic that it begins to affect him.

Thank you very much for your commentary, by the way . I really appreciate it!

 

[handforged]

I really think that the Sculpt Self would help to make the class more focused, like you want to Seasong. Unless you are planning on publishing this class, it doesn't have to be open content, so it wouldn't really matter would it?

I think that the Persistent Word feat should require some sort of prerequisite. How did the sorceror learn to cast through the silence?

I don't think that the Powerful Voice is enough to keep a character in the class rather than taking a prestige class, which would most likely offer benefits more than once every five levels.

~hf

 

[seasong]

I really think that the Sculpt Self would help to make the class more focused, like you want to Seasong.

As I said above: I don't think it would unbalance the class to have it, and in some campaigns, it would be appropriate .

My goal isn't necessarily to make the class focused - I still want a generic resource - but to make it so that the class no longer overlaps roles with the wizard, while retaining balance. Sculpt self adds a lot of campaign-specific flavor, but it doesn't really affect the role very much. To me, that sounds like something that would go well with a Prestige Class, rather than a Core Class.

Unless you are planning on publishing this class, it doesn't have to be open content, so it wouldn't really matter would it?

For purposes of this discussion, it doesn't matter so much. But I am working on a setting which will be 'published' on a website. The setting will have this sorcerer in it, and will need to adhere to the OGL.

Note that DreamChaser corrected me: sculpt self is open content. I'm leaving it off for the other reasons above, but I'm also saying that the reasons are flavor reasons, not balance reasons.

I think that the Persistent Word feat should require some sort of prerequisite. How did the sorceror learn to cast through the silence?

Hm. Perhaps a CHA 13+ prereq? There's already a prereq, though, just as for almost all other metamagic feats: it adds +1 level to the spell.

I don't think that the Powerful Voice is enough to keep a character in the class rather than taking a prestige class, which would most likely offer benefits more than once every five levels.

The class has more benefits than that: d6 HD, more skill points, and Powerful Voice. That's pretty good, if you ask me .And it doesn't have to be good enough to keep people out of PrCs, just good enough that not taking a PrC is a valid choice. I like PrCs; but they shouldn't be an automatic, obvious choice, that you would be foolish not to take.

 

[Technik4]

I like how this class has evolved! Just a couple points:

You still have the "not greater than 1 gp" requirement. Was there a specific spell (or group of spells) that you didn't want the sorceror to be able to access? The only ones I think of off the top of my head are Identify and Stoneskin.

Profession should probably be on their skill list (I think all the core classes have it).

While their magic comes from force of will and their voice, it still seems to me the class could benefit from perform. These are hyper-charismatic individuals so artistic expression is probably the norm, plus perform isnt a powerful skill (usually taken for flavor), and it fits nicely. I can see perform being on the list if intimidate is.

There is a minor disagreement between your "special" and the actual powers the sorceror gains (you mention still spell at 5th).



Some of the benefits (and detriments) of this class you may not have realized:

No problem casting during a grapple (except the usual concentration check) or while tied up, a sorceror would have to be gagged to stop them from casting spells.

Cutting off a sorceror's tongue puts them at a severe disadvantage. I mean, it puts anyone at a severe disadvantage, it just totally stops spellcasting from a sorceror, whereas others can work around it (silent spell). [This isnt a flaw or anything, just found it interesting]

Polymorphing into other forms and casting spells seems impossible? I don't know if Natural Spell would allow their grunts and growls to count as a vocal component.

A sorceror can potentially be an alt cleric or alt druid, with their spell selection a little behind overall. This is kinda interesting, but it puts this class even further behind with relation to ECL related races. This class can potentially cast anything, however they are always 1 level behind in spell levels, and non-sor/wiz spells are a level behind that!

Have you thought if whether the 1 level restriction on non-favored schools should only affect when you can take the spell? For instance, my evo-sorceror decides to take Cure Lt Wounds at 4th level. Since it is not of my favored school, I cast it at -1 caster level (I think this is what you meant by 1 less sorceror level) it would heal 1d8+3, but would only use a first level slot for me.

My quibble (and it is rather minor) is should the sorceror take the caster level hit as well as not being able to take the spell for a long time? Compare this to a sorceror wanting to take say Spell Immunity, a 6th level cleric spell. A cleric would have to be 11th level to cast this spell. A sorceror would have to be 14th level to learn the spell, and even then would only cast it as a 13th level cleric. As I said, its a minor quibble at best; perhaps getting access to all spells means they don't work quite as well for you.


Anyway, overall nice work.

Technik

 

[handforged]

Technik- According to the SRD, Spell Immunity is an Abjuration, Cleric 4, Protection 4, Strength 4. This means a standard cleric would get the spell at level 7. An alt.sorceror would be able to cast this at level 8 if Abjuration was his chosen school, or at level 9 if he had chosen another school and Abjuration is not his opposition school.

Seasong- I understand your flavor debate with Sculpt Self now, and also why you want to be Open Content, thank you for clarifying.

I think the class looks good, the only thing now is for people to try and break it to see how bad it could get with powergaming.

~hf

edit: misworded

 

[seasong]

You still have the "not greater than 1 gp" requirement. Was there a specific spell (or group of spells) that you didn't want the sorceror to be able to access? The only ones I think of off the top of my head are Identify and Stoneskin.

It's more of a flavor issue than anything - they use the power of their words, not crude material aids. It also cuts out raise dead and similar, restoration, secret chest and a number of other vaguely inappropriate spells.

Damn. It also cuts out protection from spells, which seems like a very sorcerer-y high end spell.

It may be a bad idea, and something to drop from the description. Anyone want to comment on this?

Profession should probably be on their skill list (I think all the core classes have it).

All except the barbarian and fighter. But truthfully, I just missed it.

While their magic comes from force of will and their voice, it still seems to me the class could benefit from perform. These are hyper-charismatic individuals so artistic expression is probably the norm, plus perform isnt a powerful skill (usually taken for flavor), and it fits nicely. I can see perform being on the list if intimidate is.

If perform included things like extemperaneous and public speaking, swaying a crowd of senators, and so on, I'd go with it in a heartbeat. But those things are handled by Diplomacy .

Perform is something they would do well at (due to CHA bonuses), but it's not something that would be integral to an armoured spell caster.

There is a minor disagreement between your "special" and the actual powers the sorceror gains (you mention still spell at 5th).

Oops! Thanks, that will be corrected.

Some of the benefits (and detriments) of this class you may not have realized:

No problem casting during a grapple (except the usual concentration check) or while tied up, a sorceror would have to be gagged to stop them from casting spells.

Believe me, I'm aware of this . In my current campaign, I have a variant type of spell caster called an esper who requires nothing but concentration to cast spells. The esper ni the group got caught in the stomach of a tendriculous (sp?), was paralyzed, and proceeded to gut it from the inside magically. It really drove this ability home for me .

It's reasonably well balanced out by...

Cutting off a sorceror's tongue puts them at a severe disadvantage. I mean, it puts anyone at a severe disadvantage, it just totally stops spellcasting from a sorceror, whereas others can work around it (silent spell). [This isnt a flaw or anything, just found it interesting]

Yeah. In fact, one of the historical atrocities I'm considering in the distant past of the setting was an enemy who enslaved sorcerers by cutting their tongues out and making them into silent courtesans and whatnot.

Polymorphing into other forms and casting spells seems impossible? I don't know if Natural Spell would allow their grunts and growls to count as a vocal component.

I would probably rule that it did. In general, I see the verbal components as being subject to the same strictures as for a wizard, except that the sorcerer can't eliminate the sound with silent spell.

Have you thought if whether the 1 level restriction on non-favored schools should only affect when you can take the spell? For instance, my evo-sorceror decides to take Cure Lt Wounds at 4th level.

Every spell has a school, even clerical spells . Cure Light is a conjuration spell; even if it wasn't the favored school, the sorcerer could take it as early as 2nd level.

Since it is not of my favored school, I cast it at -1 caster level (I think this is what you meant by 1 less sorceror level) it would heal 1d8+3, but would only use a first level slot for me.

This is how it works, yes.

My quibble (and it is rather minor) is should the sorceror take the caster level hit as well as not being able to take the spell for a long time?

That's a good question . Personally, I think it works fine in practice; one level of reduced effect is rarely truly horrible .

Compare this to a sorceror wanting to take say Spell Immunity, a 6th level cleric spell. A cleric would have to be 11th level to cast this spell. A sorceror would have to be 14th level to learn the spell, and even then would only cast it as a 13th level cleric.

The sorcerer could take it at 13th level if it was a non-favored school; 12th if it was the favored school.

 

[seasong]

Seasong- I understand your flavor debate with Sculpt Self now, and also why you want to be Open Content, thank you for clarifying.

No problem! And thank you for making me do it! It really helps me sharpen my understanding of the hazy archetype/role if I have to explain and defend it .

I think the class looks good, the only thing now is for people to try and break it to see how bad it could get with powergaming.

You can check out the threads about the Mystic Theurge from a week or two ago. They gave it some serious thought, but failed to come up with anything that really scared me. If I remove the material component limitation, tenser's transformation + righteous might would make the sorcerer a pretty frightening killing machine in close combat...

But you would be throwing your sorcerer into melee fighting instead of throwing spells, AND taking up two precious, precious spell slots.

 

[Galethorn]

I like it...I like it a lot...

This class perfectly fits in the gap that I've been trying so hard to fill in my semi-low magic campaign. In my world, magic isn't something that uses long incantations and strange ingredients (well, potion-making involves these, but that's another matter). Working magic is more along the lines of unleashing the forces that bind the physical world together (sort of like high-energy physics, but that's also another matter). So the lack of memorization fits, and so does the lack of material components. The only thing that I plan on changing is the allowing the key stat for casting to be charisma or wisdom (you would chose at creation), since my world's magic can be manipulated by an understanding of the world around you, or the world within.

Anyway, I was getting off track. The class fits perfectly (in my mind at least) for a Gandalf-like character, a warrior mage, or a slick spell-slinger with plenty of style. All three of these are very hard to create with the existing wizard and sorcerer.

(and of course, IMHO for all of this)

 

[seasong]

Hi Galethorn . Thank you, I'm glad you like it. The CHA/WIS idea is a nice one, although WIS takes a hit on the skill list. WIS is otherwise a more useful "class", as you no longer have to bolster the weakest ability score .