Altering the scale.

[Master of the Game]

First, a little flavor text. For those who are not interested in commentary, please give me a chance and move on to the next post. This may get a little long-winded and verbose.

Those of us who have been playing and GMing for a while know that all games have their flaws. Many people choose to ignore them, others just find the system that works well enough for them and stick with it, and a great many alter the existing rules to fit their needs.

But what if you could make changes that address many issues that you have without altering the rules or basic premisis of the game.

You see, I have a problem. I can't seem to find a game that suits my players and I just right. For more than 20 years I have bounced from game to game, fixating on this game or that for a couple of years before finding "the next best thing" and moving on. Or worse, I've house-ruled good games until they were barely recognizable.

Skill based systems seem flawed to me in that you can get too much, too early. In GURPS it's possible to create a 100-point beginning character that can gain 18s (all but impossible to fail since you need only roll your skill or lower on 3d6 to succeed) in his chosen spells or skills for just 1 point. In Shadowrun you can begin with more money and skill points than you are ever likely to gain through adventuring. My players hate the Basic system because bad rolls during character upgrades can easily completely unbalance the party.

All in all though, the skill based systems to me all seem to have the same basic flaw. Characters who specialize (as many players are want to do) start off so good at their chosen profession that gaining power and experience means gaining outside abilities, not really increasing the skills they want. There isn't much to look foreward to, and they're nearly as good as they're going to get.

Class/level based systems address this issue by increasing your level. No matter how min/maxed your character starts (assuming, of course we follow the rules as written), you're going to be even better when you go up in level. With the advent of the Epic Level Handbook this means there is always something to look foreward to.

The problem I have with this, however, is that you leave the rest of the world behind. After a few adventures you'll hit 5th level, and it would take hordes of 1st level city guards to scratch you. You many still be a fledgeling adventurer to the world at large, but to the common man you are untouchable. By the time you hit 12th level or so this is even worse. How many cities are large enough to have a good number of high level characters to be the payers' peers, that's not even counting the encounters that you must have to be worth your time.

I don't know how many of you deal with this, but I usually just end campaigns around 12th level. This of course ruins the fun for players who want to try out those high level spells or that have a cetain class combination they want to try. Also, what about the players who don't want to play snot-nose kids out adventuring for the first time? Start them higher level? Already better than anyone else in town?

You see, for me it's not the levels or classes that bother me, it's the scale. The vast majority of the world is 1st or 2nd level, so anyone even a little higher vastly outshines them. Starting characters are generally no match for even the most basic fantasy character for movies or literature, but they are far better than all but experienced adventurers and high ranking NPCs.

I don't really see the need for a house rule to solve the issue, however, just a little playing with the assumed scale.

On to the next post for those who interested in my solution or those who got tired of my rambling....

 

[Master of the Game]

So, my issue with level based games is the scale. There is such a huge difference between a 1st level character and a 3rd, that even large numbers of lower levels would be hard pressed to when such a fight. Also, it will be many months of play before your character really starts to take the shape that you see for him at character creation. At higher levels, the differences are much more minor, and characters re much better defined. You can look at his abilities and feats and see the path he has chosen to follow. For someone who has spent any time on a career or pursueing a path this should be obvious.

Are all starting characters straight out of high school or the equivalent? How many people out there are established in their careers and have spent time in college would think of themselves as a 1st or 2nd level character? Yet by the way the game is set up, the vast majority must be. Just look at the DMG and see how many people above 5th level are in a given city.

House rules might fix this, but turn some players off. A better solution would be to find a fix inside the existing rules.

So, do we start all players at higher levels? Not really, because they have then become much more than everyone else. It is a common practice to start at 3rd level to give your characters better access to the things they want, and a better rate of survivability. This, however, causes them to leave the rest of the world behind, starting them above and beyond the average person or even hardened city guardsmen and soldiers.

My solution, raise their level. Not just the characters, EVERYONE. change the whole scale of your world. If the average person comes of age at 14 to 6, and they are a commoner, they should be a 1st level commoner by then. By the time they hit 18 and have had some time in the field they may be 3rd level. This works well for fighters and mages too. You're 1st level them moment you learn to weild your weapon well, but by the time you graduated your're probably 3rd. Been to war, or served as a knight or a squire? You've probably added another level or two there. Heck, by the time you're well-established in you career and in your late 20s you may be as high as 8th level.

Too unbalanced? I don't think so as long as everyone follows the same rules. Just pick a level, usually based on the age and worldlyness of the group you want. As for NPCs, base it on the same scale. A long-time farmer might be 8-12 level, The captain of the guard might be 18th. It'll allow the characters to play around with high level abilities without devestating the world around them.

This works especially well in d20 modern. In high school you gain your first 3 level. Once you choose your career, you begin advancing along your advanced class path.

This does of course mean your whole scale will have to change. The adults of the world won't function on a 1-20 scale, but more like a 5-30 or even 40 for the truly powerful. Ancient, powerful characters like Elminster might even be 50 or 60. Untouchable for most players simply because the haven't the 1000 years or so to put into leveling.

This will take some extra work for those GMs out there. Every NPC will have to have much more thought and background, but the enounters will be more exciting. Those kobolds may still be a push over, but with a few sorcerer and rogue levels thrown in they'll be a better fight.

Please let me know what you think. My players love the idea, and I'll probably try it out if my current campaign ever ends. I'd like some feedback first though, and any comments are welcome. After all, I'd like the flaws to be pointed out to me here rather than at the table after I've already put a lot of work into it.

 

[Vinyafod]

Sounds not too bad an idea but at first glance I see two problems.
The first being: Even if the Bob the farmer is a 20th level commoner/ expert... it is in fact no real difference to a level 1 or 2 commoner. The Players will still be much, much more powerful than Bob.
As long as the majority of the population is still made up of NPC classes your system will not change much. Sure there will be Townguards (fighters) which can stand up against them but still... as long as you have 80% commoners/experts (NPC classes in general) your PC's will be much more powerfull than 80% of the population.


The second problem is magis items and magic itself. You will probably equip the PC's with adequate items appropriate for their levels. If you don't equip the NPC's accordingly you will again have a huge difference in power. Hence, equipping all NPC's with appropriate gear for their level will cause a huge flood of magic items and such. Lessening the value of these items a lot.
After all, a great deal of power the PC's can wield arises from the magic items one has.
Unless you play in an ultra-low magic campaign that will cause problems I guess.

Just a few thoughts...

 

[Stalker0]

Dnd is about heroes, it always has been. I mean, a 14 is preety average for a PC, but that's the penacle for many npcs!!!

the game is designed so that pcs are better than npcs. Adventuring is supposed to push you beyond the limits of the common man.

Still, if you want to increase the power of npcs you can, and many do. While nightwatchmen may be 1st level, the captain may be 8th. The guys working the bench at the weapons shop are first level, but the head blacksmith is 6th.

THat will help, but as has been said, its the magic that will really show a difference between pc and npc. Limiting that will equal the power much more.

Also, your problem with games higher than 12th level may be because your still trying to maintain this attachment to the common man for your pcs, and at that point you start to lose that.

When pcs can plane shift to other worlds, and fight things that have never existed in their lands no amount of power correction will keep them tied to the common people.

This is the time for uncovering lost forgotten magical cities of unbelievable power, being transported to new worlds, encountering apocolypitic situations that only the pcs can solve.

Sure, where I'm from I'm a ranger that has eyes second to none. I can see a human from miles away. But now I must track a pseudonatural death serpant, that can become invisible at will (that is made up That becomes a challenge. I'm a craftsmen, who has made artifacts for kings and queens. But now a celestial being has asked me to help him craft a bow of unbelivable power. I need special tools, which can only be found in th hellforge at the cave of Nepolopenes.

Instead of attempting to curb the power, try going with it, and see if that helps your problems any.

 

[dkilgo]

I agree with Stalker0 100%.

Once the characters actually achieve 10th to 12th level thier goals shift to those way above the common man. Hence the challenges change dramatically, too.

If you are playing in Forgotten Realms then the magic saturation is really not a ploblem since the entire realm is completely drenched in magic. But, if you are playing in the standard Greyhawk setting this might pose a problem.

But, I do have a question. Are you saying that the commoners will have levels in the NPC classes as listed in the DMG, or are you saying that they will have levels in the core classes in the PHB? That will make a great difference.

 

[Master of the Game]

The NPCs would continue in NPC classes, not PC classes. I want them to be good at what they do, not have a world full of seasoned warriors.

Perhaps I expressed this in the wrong way. You'll have to excuse me, standard American English isn't my first language, after all, I'm from Texas y'all.

I don't really expect the average farmer to take on a trained fighter. I agree that an 8th level commoner is not, and should not be, a match for an 8th level fighter. It's just that the difference is too great when we don't really expect to see many, if any, commoners above first level.

I am not inclined to believe that the difference between 8th and 12th level is as vast as the difference between 1st and 5th. A first level character could be taken out with a single blow, while an 8th level character could at least offer a fight. 5 1st level guards take on a 5th level pc, who wins? 5 8th level guards take on a lone 12th level PC, is the answer as easy?

It's a roleplaying thing mostly. In time the PCs will still be heroes, I just expect the rest of the world to continue on as well. How long in game time does it take the average PC to get from 1st to 5th level? Why shouldn't the rest of the world advance as well? Not as quickly, of course, but at least over time.

As too how to handle equipment, The characters would still be starting characters, and not have much more than a 1st level would in another game. This doesn't make the game low-powered in it is the basis for the entire world's level system. If we assume that all trained or educated adults of every species are 5th-6th level, then it's not an issue.

The trick is really advancing EVERYTHING. You wouldn't eant a character fighting a creature that can only be hit with magical weapons with this beginning gear, even if he is 6th level. You have to give these creatures character levels as well, so as to advance their CR, and not have them fight what are essentially starting characters.

If you're worried about the number of hit points the characters have, don't be. In a world where everyone is 5th level, Fireball becomes much more common .

 

[Master of the Game]

Just another quick note, the primary purpose of this is to help the characters define themselves without starting them too far above the mortan kin.

The more levels your character has, the more he gains the abilities neccesary to fit him into your image, and the easier it is to dife his role in the group.

By starting the characters a couple of levels higher they don't neccesarily have to gain fighter levels just to have some hope of gaining the feats they want. A non-human, non-fighter, who wants to be a decent archer (say, a ranger), wants Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, and Presise Shot. These feats pretty much define your role in the group, but Our Ranger friend would have to be 6th level to get them. In my game, where characters level about once a month, this would take half a year to get the character started down the path he really wants to play.

I dislike, however, starting characters at a higher level where they reach their goals more quickly, because it starts them so much tougher than 99% of the world.

Thus my idea for altering the scale...

 

[IceBear]

Hmmmm - why wouldn't the rest of the world be progressing along with the PCs anyway? The world is dynamic, and the PCs aren't the only adventurers so plenty of NPCs will scale up right along with them.

I use the optional 3 natural 20s = you're dead from the DMG just for this purpose. This has NEVER actually happened in the game, but just the thought that one of those 20 1st level warriors aiming their crossbow at the PCs MIGHT get lucky is enough to keep my players in line

IceBear

 

[plavi]

I like the idea, but it has some flaws IMHO.
First, the truly epic scale of PC's versus the world (like you see in the movies) is unattainable. At 12th level I really do not have any problem with the PC's singlehandedly ripping the heart out of any city-population. Just compare them to what they are to be: heroes. Whether you consider heroes like Bruce Willis in Die Hard, James Bond, Colonel Braddock in the Delte Force movies.... they have one thing in common: they dispatch the low level footsoldiers with ease. There is always the boss, and his righthand aide that pose more threat, and the boss himself that almost defeats the hero(es) but is finally vanquished. In a world where everybody is high level, this is quite impossible. Not that it matters, it depends on your style of play, but it is something to think about.

Secondly, the scale of magic spells. A 5th level mage casting the dreaded fireball into a soldiers barracks deserves to be rewarded by screaming piles of bodies rushing out, staggering a few paces, dropping dead while the nightly sky is alight with terrible flames licking on charred bodies and.... well, you get the picture. In the world you propose, this same mage (doing an average of say 12 points damage, or at 10th level maybe 15 provided everybody makes his saving throw) is rewarded by a few soldiers casually strolling out, calling for buckets of water and start hosing the place with only their moustaches singed.... a bit.

Thirdly, what is so special about the characters? If a few 8th level guards (of which there are an abundance in any moderately large city) can do the trick, why let the heroic PC's do it? And making the monsters/kobolds/goblins the usual low level won't help either, because then either the humans have long since eradicated all humanoids and aforesaid monsters, or at the least there already are a load of heroes in town (capable of defeating the low level baddies with one hand on their back) so why should the players become 'heroes'?

Fourthly, if you upscale anything and everything, why do so, there will be no difference.. Everything will just be 6 levels higher but that's about it.

Fifth, where to start? If you want a well-built world where everything is higher level, including the monsters so even a lowly kobold is level 4 or 5, how can the characters ever start adventuring if they (the party) are slaughtered at level one by just one such kobold. Now there's a twist. And if you do start them at higher level, why bother upping the entire world.

Concluding: in the DnD game, which I have played and DMed for about 14 years now, the most challenging and rewarding levels are between 3 and 8. The risks are really great then, the characters still developing and the party is not yet overpowering. I am now, finally after so many years, DMing a campaign where I expect the characters to rise to level 17 (give or take a few) without major problems to my world. Why? Because I keep two things very firmly in check: magic items, and money (with which they could make such). In all these years, I have seen about 90% of all campaigns crash on just one thing: overpowered PC's that could take on the greatest of dragons at level 12 and archdemons at level 14. The imagination and min-maxing of the players with the help of a lot of time, money and items is incredible.

So, to keep things exciting for all (including me) I use a few simple ingrediënts:
- very few very special monsters
- very low magic (why have a magical weapon/sword/whatever if a MW item is much cheaper and can do the same)
- very little money (who ever has 100s of goldpieces? everybody spends them with very few exceptions)
- keep up the pace. the characters are now lvl 11 avg and in time they have spent maybe 10 months of time. This just doesn't give them the time to think, invent impossible spells that give horrible bonusses and such
- keep things mysterious. Keep the baddies scary, in the shadows and horrible, their minds will make your favorite baddie much worse than he is on paper
- finally: dare to say no if a spell or item is unbalancing or doesn't fit your world. I said no to Teleport, just plain no. No. No!

*gasps for air*

Good luck

Christiaan Lam
evil-dm@plavi.nl
www.plavi.nl/evil-dm

 

[MerakSpielman]

[shrug]

I noticed this problem as well. My solution (such as it is) for my next campaign is as follows:

The campaign starts out in my world's Underdark, where all races have taken refuge from a cataclysm that has rendered the surface uninhabitable. Life in the Underdark is hard, so the average level of any NPC of adult age is 5th. Generally, they start as a 1st level commoner/expert at about age 12, when they start being able to work for a living. By the time they reach 20, they're usually toughened by hard life and are level 5.

Also, most commoners and experts are drafted into the local militias. They gain at least one level of warrior around age 18 if their strength is above 9. If their strength is above 13, they are taught one level of fighter at that time. In remote, particulary harsh areas they might pick up a level of barbarian or ranger.

PCs and major NPCs are assumed to have been in professional training from around age 12 to age 18. They start off at first level, having been isolated from the realities that toughen the daily lives of the common folk. Most such folk are members of orginizations like fighting schools, temples or monestaries, and remain there, serving their local communities as guards, healers, or scholars. Such folk can be of any level, though they also "clump" around fifth. Most communities have at least 3 such organizations and their accompanying NPCs. Woe to the PC who causes trouble in a community that houses a monestary of 50 monks averaging 5th level and getting perhaps as high as 15th!

Of course, in this campaign, truly small settlements are rare and get wiped out quickly by the non-stop monster raids. So we're always talking about communities of at least one or two thousand people, most of whom have a level (or occasionally two) of warrior or fighter. I have a feeling my PCs will behave themselves and not consider themselves that much more powerful than the villagers.