Alternate Bard Class (Sort of)

[davedoty]

I know that thread title is horrendous, but I couldn't think of a way to boil my subject down to a few words and still be coherent.

I've always loved the rp concept of the bard as a wandering minstrel/ storyteller, but never liked the class design itself (for the usual, well-hashed out reasons.)

It recently occurred to me that the best way to have my cake and eat it too would simply be to play another class, but have bard be the profession. In other words, to take my stats from Class X, but have the character with those abilities and stats be a wandering storyteller, and play him as such.

My question here is twofold: what would be the best class(es) to lend themselves to that type of role-playing, and what tweaks might I try to sell my GM on to improve them?

If I wanted to stay with spellcasting, a cleric or favored soul whose "deity" is the magic of language or myth or one of those "devoted to a concept" ideas sprung to mind. If I wanted to have a non-magical wandering minstrel, rogue and swashbuckler came to mind as someone whose abilities would complement what I want to play. Any other suggestions?

As far as tweaks, the main thing that came to my mind is that while Bardic Knowledge isn't one of the most powerful abilities, it's one that would really make my bard feel more like a Bard, if you know what I mean. AFAIK, there's no way for non-bards to acquire that ability without going homebrew, although if there is, I'd love to hear about it.

If I'm going to try to sell something homebrew, the most logical approach would probably be to try to trade a class feature that doesn't fit my character concept for bardic knowledge. Trading Turn Undead or Trapfinding/Trap Sense for Bardic Knowledge would probably be a step down in terms of the crunchy, but would make the character more like what I want it to be.

I don't like bringing poorly-developed, half-formed ideas to my GMs, so wanted to get some feedback so that I could bring a more solid proposal forward. Any thoughts would be appreciated. (Although if you're going to bring a defense of the standard bard class, you've got your work cut out for you.)

 

[Dandu]

If I wanted to stay with spellcasting, a cleric or favored soul whose "deity" is the magic of language or myth or one of those "devoted to a concept" ideas sprung to mind.

Using a cloistered cleric would do it. They get lots of skill points and even Bardic Knowledge.

A Wizard/Loremaster gets Lore, which is a similar ability.

If I wanted to have a non-magical wandering minstrel, rogue and swashbuckler came to mind as someone whose abilities would complement what I want to play. Any other suggestions?

Marshal? It's not very good, though.

Alternatively, getting advice on how to make a well build bard could also work. They exist.

 

[Ranger19k]

try to trade a class feature that doesn't fit my character concept for bardic knowledge. Trading Turn Undead or Trapfinding/Trap Sense for Bardic Knowledge would probably be a step down in terms of the crunchy, but would make the character more like what I want it to be.

If you came to me with this proposal, I'd approve it straight out: you are probably giving up more than you get (powerwise), so I'd have no problem with that.

Additionally, you are going to want to add Perform and Diplomacy (at a minimum) to your class skills if the base class doesn't already have them. I would probably let you just add them for "free" with the thought that the "penalty" for the additional skills would be the self-imposed MAD (requiring you to invest in Charisma when you wouldn't otherwise have bothered).

If you don't think that's a strong enough "penalty", you could also propose one-for-one skill swaps (say, add those two but loose two that are reasonably "unbardish"). As long as you arr not trying to add UMD in exchange for Handle Animal (which you aren't) I would see it as a fair trade.

I would probably not let you swap in the entire Bard class-skills, however, since they get a lot, and other classes are "balanced by having fewer skills. If you wanted to swap something like the Rogue skills list in exchange for the Bard's I'd consider allowing it, but Cleric for Bard would be a no-go.

As far as classing goes, be sure to consider the skill points as well. If you tried to do your Bard alternative off of a cleric base class with those huge 2+int skill points per level, you aren't going to be able to flesh out perform enough to even make it worthwhile, unless you have a high int as well as a high chr, which pretty much means a high everything in a cleric (talk about MAD). So I think it would work best with something like rogue, or even Ranger (I can see a woodland minstrel) who have a fair number of points to spare.

Overall though, 1) I like the idea, and 2) see no reason why it would disrupt game balance and thus see no reason why it wouldn't work.

 

[Greenfield]

I'd start with a Rogue, add Sorcerer, and head to Arcane Trickster, with Bard/Minstrel as my cover identity.

I'd probably use Knowledge: History as my substitute for Bardic Knowledge, since I've tended to treat BK as a gift for trivia based on things picked up through stories and songs.

 

[davedoty]

Thanks for all the advice, folks! I particularly hadn't considered the cloistered cleric or arcane trickster possibilities.

I'm still not sure what I want to do, but at least I have more options (and some other factors like sp I hadn't thought much about) to take into account now.

 

[Dandu]

I want to point out that if you are going to be an Arcane Trickster, Rogue/Sorcerer is worse for entry than Rogue/Wizard.

Mainly because Rogues and Wizards both have boost Int, Dex, and Con. A Rogue/Sorcerer needs to have points in Int, Dex, Con, and Cha.

Also, a Wizard is more versatile, which allows you to customize your spell load for whatever misadventures you get up to that day. Like Batman.

Arcane Trickster's an ok class, but Unseen Seer is better. A lot of builds will throw on Arcane Trickster after Unseen Seer to get good stuff from both classes.

 

[BENINHB]

Also remember Wizards get all knowledges as class skills and knowledge checks are based off INT. If you want the worldly bard that knows a little bit (or a lot a bit) about everything this might be the way to go. This could be another way to replace Bardic Knowledge.

 

[davedoty]

Thanks again. I was unfamiliar with Unseen Seer. One thing I notice right away is it would be very easy to meet the prereqs after 5 levels, and have more flexibility in how much to take in rogue/wizard. Arcane Trickster wouldn't be available until after 8 levels - 3 rogue for the 2d6 sneak attack, 5 wizard/sorceror to have 3rd level spells.

So if nothing else, it would make sense to take Unseen Seer at 6th level, then have the option of both once I meet the Arcane Trickster prereq.