Alternate Charisma Uses

[italianranma]

Charisma also reprents hoew other character react to the person. Characters with low charisma I have NPC react worst with, they get fewer good deals and are more likely to get ripped off by merchants, they have troubles in most role playing conversations; I make it a point to have NPC react better to the character with the high charisma.

This is basically the responce that I got from my friend who also DM's. In his opinion this can all be balanced with good DMing. I personally don't like that approach to it. Getting good deals, fiscal or social, is a function that already is taken by the diplomacy skill. Appraising should help out too if we're talking about merchant interaction.

We really only care about how people think about or react to us if we're going to interact with them. And all that interaction can be taken care of with the dipolomacy skill. There's a great write up for an alternate way to use diplomacy, and you can find it here. Besides, in the middle of a fight, no one cares what you look like, or what kind of personality you have anymore. Charima fight skills (Intimidate and Bluff) need accompanying feats to make them viable. Action points don't. Besides, of the three classes that REALLY use charimsa, 2 have the diplomacy as class skills and as a good part of their archtype (the other has charm person )

So I think the current system accurately takes into account how much of an impact charisma has on social situations already.

 

[Stalker0]

Another big problem with charisma is that its so easily replaced by diplomacy in most cases. A rogue can have be the ugliest mug in the world but with a few ranks in diplomacy he can get the deals he needs and he's good to go.

I think teh action point idea is the way to go right now. Its really doesn't matter if your NPCs use charimsa much...NPC stats are kind of fluid anyway

 

[Crothian]

This is basically the responce that I got from my friend who also DM's. In his opinion this can all be balanced with good DMing. I personally don't like that approach to it. Getting good deals, fiscal or social, is a function that already is taken by the diplomacy skill. Appraising should help out too if we're talking about merchant interaction.

Then make them make diplomkancy checks all the time or figure out what their take 10 number is and use that. It is basically the same, they will have a low number and that will make people more hostile towards them. It is the same thing without the need for constant rolling.

 

[Crothian]

What if people with low charisma are more likely to be attacked in combat? Lots of times the enmy has choices of whom to attack, so they now attack the low charisma guys first.

 

[Al]

The most important way to make Charisma useful is to make NPCs react accordingly. Unless your campaign consists of a large series of dungeon-hacks, NPCs will be a significant driving force in your campaign world. The example of shopkeepers possibly trying to get poorer deals to low Charisma characters in a very good one, particularly if there is a large amount of haggling involved.

More importantly, Charisma dictates how the PCs will be treated in a broader sense. So, not only will the highest Charisma PC be treated as the "leader" in nearly all cases, but the low Charisma PCs will likely be ignored or passed over by NPCs. The high Charisma bard could well get a peerage and engagements to lovely young debutantes eager to hear about his adventuring on top of the standard reward; the low Charisma fighter begrudgingly gets his money and is told to go to the tavern before the guests start arriving at the palace. High Charisma characters always receive social benefits over low and average Charisma characters. Diplomacy and similar social skills (which are, of course, Charisma based) can act to remedy this, but are often trying to close the door once the horse has bolted. If, as the duke, you have one more ticket to your grand ball, do you invite the handsome and bold paladin or the ugly rogue who will probably eat the food with his grubby hands? Even if the rogue has Diplomacy, one the letters have gone out, what is he going to do to change the situation?

Disparities can really appear when PCs are not merely taken in isolation, but are in competition with others for particular roles, honours and positions. The high level cleric might be looking for a formal title such as Bishop, but imagine his horror when the quiet middle-aged theologian gets it instead since he is deemed to have "better capacity for fulfilling the pastoral and organisational role, notwithstanding your great combat achievements against Sardun the Lich".

I cannot emphasise this strongly enough: high Charisma always grants social privileges; low Charisma is always a social handicap. It is the job of a DM to ensure that that is the case: and that the low Charisma character suffers as a result.

 

[Tonguez]

It may not suit everyone but I use a wealth-mechanic based on Cha (called Influence) which determines how much a character is able to call on the resources of others and maybe even get useful items, information or help in a task.

It helps tie the PCs to the community they rely on and to think of ways to enhance their status (and thus influence) as leaders and heroes.

Influence is determined as Level + Cha + status modifiers, using the Leadership table it can be used to determine the level of NPC Ally (not a cohort), and it can even be used to test a PCs worthiness to handle a magic item (eg The Spear of Destiny has a Influence DC of 12 to activate, a failed check means it just acts like a normal spear)

 

[Technik4]

I cannot emphasise this strongly enough: high Charisma always grants social privileges; low Charisma is always a social handicap. It is the job of a DM to ensure that that is the case: and that the low Charisma character suffers as a result.

Again with the 'suffering'. I am just curious whether you go after the PCs with the 8 Dex, Str, or Con - or do you consider their mechanical drawbacks to be sufficient? Your argument also assumes that someone can gauge someone's Charisma rather quickly upon meeting or speaking with them for a short time - I don't think there is such a mechanic; given 3.5's focus on charisma not being tied to looks, I find this to be a stretch.

My problem boils down to this: If a character with a low stat in any other ability mis-roleplays as if they had a higher score, it would eventually come out. For instance, if the fighter decided to play a quirky character and only had an 8 Con, but blustered about as if he was extremely tough, during the first fight it would be very apparant that it was not the case.

However, if a character with an 8 Cha blusters about and is arrogant (which could be defined as low charisma, if it generally led to poor reactions) and I ask him to roll a Diplomacy check to not insult someone (or some similar social roll) and he rolls a '20', he has effectively negated that low score in that situation.

I bring up those 2 examples (8 Con Fighter, then it was actually and 8 Cha Wizard) because those have both occured in games I've been in. The wizard only met with the king that one time, and while the court hated him, the king didn't so despite his low Cha he was the intermediary with the king (which never came up again, except that he regularly insulted couriers bringing us information from the king).

I wasn't DMing either of those games, but I did play in them. I don't feel the DM was particularly unfair, a '20' counts for something in our games and the wizard rolled right when he really needed it (the DM later explained that he would have thrown the wizard in shackles for a day if he had rolled poorly and insulted the king).

Generally the wizard got by fine - 1 member of the party bought and sold our items, and the paladin 'leader' was usually the go-between for NPCs. The wizard never desired social titles, he had fun being a prick to the NPCs (though never enough to face repercussions).

I guess my consternation is what could have been done differently? The wizard was just below average in terms of charisma (8). How many penalties (or roadblocks) would you have put in his way for something the game mechanically penalizes by a -1 to social skills. The wizard actually did have some ranks in bluff (cross-class).

We did not have perhaps as many social engagements as other campaigns, but it was understood that the only PC interested in doing such things was the paladin, who himself wasn't that interested (he didn't want to have his 3 friends sitting around waiting for him to get done prancing around). We went to banquets honoring us, were lauded as heroes, etc etc. My advice to the Fighter with 8 Con was that the next time he had to put an 8 somewhere, stick it in Cha (the fighter died in the 3rd session, trying to tank a monster). I don't see how my advice is faulty, given the nature of the game.

Technik

 

[Nifft]

Some things I've considered:

-> Action Points: Each level you get 3+Cha bonus Action Points. Thus, if you are cool, the universe bends to your will.

-> Tie Breaker: Whenever you exactly hit a target number (attack vs. AC, save vs. DC, skill check vs. opposed skill check, etc.) whoever has the higher Charisma bonus wins.

-- N

 

[Terath Ninir]

Again with the 'suffering'. I am just curious whether you go after the PCs with the 8 Dex, Str, or Con - or do you consider their mechanical drawbacks to be sufficient? Your argument also assumes that someone can gauge someone's Charisma rather quickly upon meeting or speaking with them for a short time - I don't think there is such a mechanic; given 3.5's focus on charisma not being tied to looks, I find this to be a stretch.

Trust me, people with low charisma get pegged as such almost immediately IRL all the time.


However, I think that it would be best to have mechanical advantages for all 6 stats that at least come close to balancing out. Currently, they don't. I think there should be roleplaying benefits and penalties for all stats -- I could see a group of mages, for instance, looking down on low-Int characters -- but I think that that should be a seperate consideration from the mechanical benefits and penalties. You should be able to look at your character sheet and say "ah, this is why I need each of these ability scores; it's gonna be tough picking a dump stat!".

 

[Technik4]

"ah, this is why I need each of these ability scores; it's gonna be tough picking a dump stat!".

Exactly. I could penalize people for having low Str or Dex in roleplaying situations too, but honestly that isn't fun to me. If it provides flavor, that's fun, but just creating roadblocks based on ability scores? No thanks.

Technik