Alternate Initiative Method

MechaPilot

Explorer
I'm restarting my D&D campaign after a somewhat long hiatus to finish school and look after my father. I'm going to be implementing an initiative variant when we restart, and I'd like to hear the community's thoughts on it.

Initiative Variant
Actions are declared at the beginning of the round.

If you don’t move, roll 1d10 + modifier.

If you move, roll 1d6 + modifier.

If you need to change the target of your action, you may do so with no problem. If you need to change your action to something else, you’ll be forfeiting your action for that turn. This applies to your enemies as well as you.

Weapon Modifiers:
Light Weapons: +1d12
Finesse Weapons: +1d10
Normal Weapons: +1d8
Two-Handed Weapons: +1d6
Heavy Weapons: +1d4

Special Actions:
Grapple, Shove, etc.: +1d8
Improvised Action: +1d6

Spell Modifiers:
Cantrip: +1d8
Non-Cantrip: +1d4-spell level



Notes:
  • Creatures that attack without manufactured weapons (such as dragons biting or clawing at an enemy, or a mind-flayer using its psychic blast) use the “Normal Weapons” weapon modifier unless the description of the attack.
  • “Light Weapons” includes light finesse weapons, and “Heavy Weapons” includes heavy two-handed weapons. “Versatile” weapons are considered “Normal Weapons” regardless of whether you’re using them one- or two-handed.
  • Weapon modifiers only apply if you’re using that weapon. If you’re holding a heavy weapon but using an innate racial ability (for example) you would use the +1d8 for your ability, not the +1d4 for your weapon.
 

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Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
I'd be very worried about the forfeiting you action part. It's a lot easier to not have a target still standing in melee range then it is if you do ranged attacks. So this rule penalizes melee characters a lot more than ranged. It also penalizes them because they more often need to include a move.

Plus, lastly, it's extremely non-fun. With 4 other players plus DM-controlled foes, if a turn takes 2-3 minutes it's probably 15 minutes between actions. Missing a single action means you don't get to do anything for half an hour. As a player, I would argue strongly against such a rule because it seems it would be net un-fun.
 

MechaPilot

Explorer
Unless I'm mistaken, losing your action is part of the weapon speed variant in the DMG. This is just an alteration of that variant, so I kept that rule.

Also, if your chosen target is gone, you can switch to a new target with no problem. As long as you're doing the same thing (e.g. moving up to an enemy and attacking it, or making a ranged attack against it) just to a different target, you don't forfeit your turn.
 

toucanbuzz

No rule is inviolate
I've been using the DMG speed factor variant and looked over the Greyhawk variant, so some of this is familiar. And, in actual gameplay as I've documented in another thread, "losing" an action is a very rare event.

Movement: The +1d6 modifier should be clarified for the option to move in case it'd be counterproductive when your turn comes up. You're still penalized for not setting your feet, Greyhawk style.

Weapons: Hey, the d12 gets some love. In your monster section, what about a Giant with a giant-sized knife? Do you have a size modifier built in to account for this?

Do ranged weapons act differently? What about loading weapons?

Are you accounting (or caring) for the argument that Reach matters? A criticism of weapon speed is that fantasy armies of creatures with daggers and short swords should overwhelm armies with long swords, pikes, etc., due to superior initiative.

Special Actions: Does this include all class abilities such as clerical Channel? What about class abilities that mimic spells? What about if a class ability is a "bonus" action?

Spells: Casters seem to get hosed under this system. In the DMG variant, it's -1 per spell level so that a 2nd level spell is akin to a heavy weapon, and a 5th level spell is like loading a crossbow. I get the impression they'll generally always go last if they do anything but cast a Cantrip.

Other: Do Bonus actions and normal Actions stack modifiers? (Under DMG variant they do). If not, how do you account for them?

Improvised actions, are these like opening a door, using a lever, etc.? What if one is vastly different, such as tying a knot versus simply pushing a door open? Or does the +1d6 already account for what can happen in 6 seconds? In the variant, the DM decides arbitrarily whether to assign a penalty modifier.

Size. As above, does it make sense to penalize larger weapons but not larger creatures?

That's a lot of dice rolling. Assuming bonus actions stack, if I want to move, attack with my longsword, and cast Healing Word as a bonus action, I'm rolling 1d6+my modifier + 1d8 + 1d4 minus 1. That's, relative to the original system, a lot of rolls and math each round. Plus, if you have diverse enemies, you the DM are having to track the same thing. What if the party is facing another adventuring party? You, the DM, might be rolling and tracking 3 different dice each round for each enemy. Are you concerned about slowing combat down?
 

MechaPilot

Explorer
I've been using the DMG speed factor variant and looked over the Greyhawk variant, so some of this is familiar. And, in actual gameplay as I've documented in another thread, "losing" an action is a very rare event.

I do hope so. I don't intend the rule to be penalizing, just to encourage better cooperation.


Movement: The +1d6 modifier should be clarified for the option to move in case it'd be counterproductive when your turn comes up. You're still penalized for not setting your feet, Greyhawk style.

The 1d6 applies if you declare that you're going to move. You aren't required to move if you declare it, but you can't move if you don't declare it. So the 1d6 really does apply to the option to move.


Weapons: Hey, the d12 gets some love. In your monster section, what about a Giant with a giant-sized knife? Do you have a size modifier built in to account for this?
. . .
Size. As above, does it make sense to penalize larger weapons but not larger creatures?

I don't have any modifiers for creature size. I do see the value of having one, but I also want to keep the modifiers to a minimum (especially since I've been using dice as modifiers). I'll see how things play out. If I decide I need a modifier, my go-to fix will be a static modifier for size: -2 per size category above medium, and +2 per size category below medium.


Do ranged weapons act differently? What about loading weapons?

My variant treats ranged weapons the same as melee weapons (except that you're less likely to have to move when using a ranged weapon, so you're more likely to use 1d10 + modifier instead of 1d6 + modifier), and it ignores the loading property. Loading already comes with a steep enough penalty in the form of being able to make only a single attack.


Are you accounting (or caring) for the argument that Reach matters? A criticism of weapon speed is that fantasy armies of creatures with daggers and short swords should overwhelm armies with long swords, pikes, etc., due to superior initiative.

It makes sense to me to make reach weapons faster than non-reach weapons. However, I decided to ignore that for simplicity. If I decide through play that I need to account for it, I'll treat the reach quality as granting a +2 initiative bonus.


Special Actions: Does this include all class abilities such as clerical Channel? What about class abilities that mimic spells? What about if a class ability is a "bonus" action?

It includes all abilities used in your action that aren't covered by other entries. If an ability mimics a spell, I don't treat it as a spell unless you cast it like a spell.


Spells: Casters seem to get hosed under this system. In the DMG variant, it's -1 per spell level so that a 2nd level spell is akin to a heavy weapon, and a 5th level spell is like loading a crossbow. I get the impression they'll generally always go last if they do anything but cast a Cantrip.

Casters don't really get "hosed," but they are more likely to act later. The +1d4 does help offset some of the spell level penalty for low-level spells (which was my intent). If we assume an average d4 die result of 2.5, the caster is left with a +1 modifier for a first level spell and a 0 modifier for a second level spell. It's only for spells above second level that the caster starts to (on average) have a negative modifier.


Other: Do Bonus actions and normal Actions stack modifiers? (Under DMG variant they do). If not, how do you account for them?

For the sake of simplicity, I'm opting not to account for bonus actions and to base the modifier entirely on what a player declares she'll do with her action. I don't really see the need to account for the bonus action, because I don't see the potential for brokenness; that is to say I don't see how a character will get a meaningful benefit from declaring a dagger attack with her action and doing something slower with her bonus action. Please note that I may be overlooking something, that's certainly possible.


Improvised actions, are these like opening a door, using a lever, etc.? What if one is vastly different, such as tying a knot versus simply pushing a door open? Or does the +1d6 already account for what can happen in 6 seconds? In the variant, the DM decides arbitrarily whether to assign a penalty modifier.

By Improvised Action I mean an action that requires me to decide how to mechanically resolve it. Opening a door or operating a lever are just object interactions. Maybe I should include a modifier for that, but I truly do want to keep this simple without just simplifying it down to a single and very swingy die roll.

By way of contrast, an improvised action is something more like attempting to drop a chandelier on a creature, using the circular part of the chandelier to hold the creature's limbs to its sides until it can wriggle or break free.


That's a lot of dice rolling. Assuming bonus actions stack, if I want to move, attack with my longsword, and cast Healing Word as a bonus action, I'm rolling 1d6+my modifier + 1d8 + 1d4 minus 1. That's, relative to the original system, a lot of rolls and math each round. Plus, if you have diverse enemies, you the DM are having to track the same thing. What if the party is facing another adventuring party? You, the DM, might be rolling and tracking 3 different dice each round for each enemy. Are you concerned about slowing combat down?

It's two dice: one base die (determined by whether you declare movement or not) + one modifier die.

I originally wanted to change the initiative roll to just 2d10 to reduce the swinginess. When coming up with the variant, I specifically wanted to keep the dice rolled down to just two.

So, in your example of moving, attacking with a longsword, and casting Healing Word, your initiative would be 1d6 + 1d8. With average results (3.5 & 4.5), that would be an 8.
 

Since you are asking for thoughts, my general thought is that I'd rather do just about anything than have a declaration phase in initiative. That was the norm for most games before 3e, so I was leery about the conceptual "lack of realism" in the new system. Then I played it and never went back. The awkwardness of having to declare actions you may not get to attempt, inconsistencies with modifiers affecting some things but not others (weapon speed, etc), patches to try to get around those issues, plus the extra overhead of the two phase deal itself...just no.
 

Rolling a bunch of different dice and adding them up for every round of combat is kind of cumbersome. Even if every player knows the system inside and out, as the DM running a large battle with perhaps multiple enemy casters, doing this every round seems like more of a headache than its worth.

Old school initiative rolled each round worked because it was a simple d6 roll per side.
 

Tom B1

Explorer
Really, its almost like combat should track melee distance - close, short, long.

Close - right in your face - elbows and knees, shield bash, uppercut, maybe a dagger
Short - inside the distance of a spear or two handed sword
Long - not likely to be threatened by a person with a knife or short weapon

You would start out at long. If he has a spear and you have a short sword, your objective is to close to short range. The initiative that round is weighted in his favour. Some sort of test would be made (STR, DEX, Level based test) to determine if you got to close with your spear armed foe. If not, same thing next round. If you did close, on the next round, you have the advantage with the shorter weapon and HIS goal is to back off (again, a test). If you can keep the fight at short sword range, he'll have trouble hitting you with a spear. If he keeps it at spear range, you won't get many hits in and are likely to have a bad ending.

The other option for the spear guy once you get to short range is to drop his spear and go for his dagger (or attempt to grapple or batter you with his fists). At that point, you start the round at short with advantage to the shorts sword, but he tries to close with you to close. If he fails, you have advantage the next round. If he succeeds, he has the advantage and you likely have to grapple, punch or pull a dagger because you are so close.

That model makes more sense than arbitrarily assuming a dagger will strike before a spear --- that conclusion entirely depends on melee distance and strategy.

If I had a dagger, I would NOT want to try to close with a swordsman. If I had to do so, I'd hope for a fast pass to get me in close then I'd try very hard never to let the swordsman get a decent swing with his sword again by trying to be right up close to him. The same applies if I had a sword and he had a spear.

This is why weapon speed usually isn't represented. It's situational and if you want to abstract the combat, then you are really abstracting who is closer when and whose strategy is working to get close - you just both get to take shots at one another when portions of the round place you at ranges advantageous for your striking. (Exception: If you are grappled is actually modeled).

The same logic applies to larger creatures (slow, but longer reach) or smaller ones (very limited reach, but fast). If you aren't going to model the melee distance bands, then just abstracting weapons to remove modelling speed also makes sense (you can't just do half the job and have it make sense - do the full job or none at all).
 

Tom B1

Explorer
Of course, attacks of opportunity or a concept of a readied strike can give an automatic (or test driven) chance to strike a foe closing on you, but they usually fail to let you gain back that distance (so your long weapon ceases to be useful in short order unless you have a wall of them). Your 5-step type of move is usually a followable one, so here again not a perfect solution.

It's almost like there are three ranges: 2 squares away (long weapons like 2 handed swords and spears can strike here), 1 square away, most weapons can work (swords, axes, maces that aren't 5'+ long but are at least 18" long), in the same space (grappling, daggers, brass knuckles, uppercut, etc).

It gets ugly when you have multi-combatant melee... because people can then step in and out of range bands with respect to multiple opponents. Tracking that is possible but not simple.
 

Coroc

Hero
This initiative System which you are considering to add more "reality" to your game is B(ad)S(olution). Sorry for my strong language, no offense but i get a bit tired to point out again and again that long/two handed weapons have far more velocity (because of weapon edge sitting on a longer Lever) and are attacking first in a RL Scenario because they have REACH.

So if you are adding modifiers to initiative it goes from this fastest to slowest:
Cocked crossbow
Bow
sling
Pike / Lance
Spear polearm quarterstaff
Two handed sword /axe greatclub / rapier (Rapier because of its insane reach, not because it is light in reality, in fact it weighs as much as a longsword)
Longsword
Mace battleaxe etc
Hand axe dagger etc Yes your dagger fighter will get attacked and hit before he get's into the reach which allows him to apply his own weapon!

Especially in your System consider this two points:

you give dexterity stat even more overpower than it already has, because it already determines base initiative

The forfeiting the Action is an as heavy toll as can be since in 5e most fighsts are only Lasting 1-4 rounds, to sit out one of these rounds without an enemy spending a resource, because of some houserule is far to much and might break game Balance.
 

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