First I want to say thanks for all the feedback!
Now...some replies
"I think low level rogues lose quite a bit with this variant. Over his first 3 levels, a rogue gets 2 sneak attack dice, traps, Uncanny dodge 1, and evasion. Your variant can't get all that until level 5, at which point he is still one ability behind. In fact, your rogue has one ability less than the PHB one. Did you forget one because Traps is a rogue ability that doesn't show on the advancement chart?"
* I feel the same about the Rogue as I do about the Bard. Too much power is gained front-end in the 1st 3 levels of the Rogue. I wanted to balance it more with the Fighter progression as well as some of the other classes. And I did state in the beginning that the Rogue ends up technically one power behind the Core version, but my version is much more versatile as a trade off.
"Also, multiclassing might be a problem. Because of their large amount of skill points, Rogues are already an attractive multiclass option. Your variant makes them even more attractive. A fighter rogue could take sneak powers more quickly and easily than a normal rogue. Characters that want feats would pick up some rogue levels, getting both rapid skill and feat advancement."
* Actually, the rate at which a Fighter Rogue can aquire sneak attacks is NOT all that much quicker than a pure rogue. Also remember that the Rogue Abilities must be gained to get the Sneak attacks. Also note that there are not that many "Combat Feats" available to the Rogue. Also note that it is meant to be versatile in that you can be like the Core class Rogue or can specialize in some area like Thug, Burglar, etc.
"Finally, I don't like the requirements for many abilites. For example, I don't understand the relation between combat training against multiple opponents and Sense Motive. I think you'd be better off requiring a certain rogue level for many abilties rather than generic requirements. These are rogue only powers, not feats for anyone to take."
* I decided to use Sense Motive because it is defined as the character's "sensitivity to body language, speach habits, and mannerisms of others". Of all the skills available in 3E this is the one that most stands out as what you would need to be accomplished at fighting off multiple opponents. You can read feints, dodges, looks from one opponent to the other, subltle signals given to coordinate attacks, etc. An alternative (not as good in my opinion) would be Spot and/or Listen.
The reason I dont use levels is because I wanted it tied to a level of skill in something, not just on generic class level. Basing it on Class level removes the ability or it to be customized as much as it is. Technically saying an example of "Sense Motive 13 ranks" means you have to be at least 10th level, but it also means you have had to specialize a skill. As for not being feats - they still are not feats. Only a Rogue can gain these skills. It does not say "Feat: Sneak Attack 1" - it says "Rogue Ability: Sneak Attack 1".
"Pardon me for having to ask this, but why are the feats Twin Sword Style, Militia, Improved Unarmed Strike, Flick of the Wrist, and Quick Strike on the rogues bonus feat list?"
* Specifically because I want the Rogue to be as versatile as it is supposed to be by definition and description.
Twin Sword Style is the epitome of the two weapon fighter. And as I have said before I see the Rogue as the most apt to being Two Weapon weilders. Fighters in general are more militant and generally prefer heavy armor, weapons and shields (in general).
Militia is granted because there are those Rogues with Militia background. There are those Rogues who work irectly for a Military organization. In both cases - generally as scouts, perimeter guards, intelligence agents, etc.
Improved Unarmed Strike is allowed because many Rogues are seen as professional Pugilists.
Flick of the Wrist because if ANYONE is a master at the Quick Drawn and hurled dagger - its a Rogue. Think the typical Hustler from the old days. Cheat a Rogue in cards and before you can blink an eye there is a dagger in the table mere inches from your hands.
Quickstrike should be obvious. All of the Traps & Treachery feats are specifically designed for Rogues.
"Also, why give them the class abilities of Dual Weapon Technique, Improved Weapon Training and Weapon Training?"
* As stated previously, I see Rogues as more apt to be dual wielders than any other class. Also to allow the rogue to be versatile enough to concentrate as a Tough or Thug rather than a Thief as they are designed in the Core class. Why should a Thug - someone who is only hired muscle with skils in stealth also, know anything about Traps?
As for the weapons, I did away with the restricted weapon selection. It makes no sense to me. A Sorcerer gets all simple weapons, but a Rogue doesnt? And why are Rogues restricted in weapon choice based on size?? A Fighter isnt - no other class is actually. You dont see a Halfling Fighter restricted to the weapons they gain proficiency in based on their size - so why does a Rogue?
"If you are doing this to the core classes (by this I mean making them much more versatile), then you are most likely doing it for the same reason I did it a few months ago. You are annoyed by the "archetyping" of the core classes, and the presence of the "fake" core classes like the Ranger and Paladin."
* Similar reasons. I do not like some of the classes that have been stereotyped like the Rogue. I want a Rogue that can be a pure Merchant if I choose, or a Pure Thug, or a Pure Burglar. It is supposed to be the most versatile of classes, but is pidgeon holed by its abilities.
As for the Paladin - I have a rare view and created a Holy Warrior. Only those of True Netral alinment cannot have the conviction to champion a Deity, as they are specifically written as "undecided". As for the Ranger, it too got a re-write.
Again - thanks for the Comments!!!
Now...some replies
"I think low level rogues lose quite a bit with this variant. Over his first 3 levels, a rogue gets 2 sneak attack dice, traps, Uncanny dodge 1, and evasion. Your variant can't get all that until level 5, at which point he is still one ability behind. In fact, your rogue has one ability less than the PHB one. Did you forget one because Traps is a rogue ability that doesn't show on the advancement chart?"
* I feel the same about the Rogue as I do about the Bard. Too much power is gained front-end in the 1st 3 levels of the Rogue. I wanted to balance it more with the Fighter progression as well as some of the other classes. And I did state in the beginning that the Rogue ends up technically one power behind the Core version, but my version is much more versatile as a trade off.
"Also, multiclassing might be a problem. Because of their large amount of skill points, Rogues are already an attractive multiclass option. Your variant makes them even more attractive. A fighter rogue could take sneak powers more quickly and easily than a normal rogue. Characters that want feats would pick up some rogue levels, getting both rapid skill and feat advancement."
* Actually, the rate at which a Fighter Rogue can aquire sneak attacks is NOT all that much quicker than a pure rogue. Also remember that the Rogue Abilities must be gained to get the Sneak attacks. Also note that there are not that many "Combat Feats" available to the Rogue. Also note that it is meant to be versatile in that you can be like the Core class Rogue or can specialize in some area like Thug, Burglar, etc.
"Finally, I don't like the requirements for many abilites. For example, I don't understand the relation between combat training against multiple opponents and Sense Motive. I think you'd be better off requiring a certain rogue level for many abilties rather than generic requirements. These are rogue only powers, not feats for anyone to take."
* I decided to use Sense Motive because it is defined as the character's "sensitivity to body language, speach habits, and mannerisms of others". Of all the skills available in 3E this is the one that most stands out as what you would need to be accomplished at fighting off multiple opponents. You can read feints, dodges, looks from one opponent to the other, subltle signals given to coordinate attacks, etc. An alternative (not as good in my opinion) would be Spot and/or Listen.
The reason I dont use levels is because I wanted it tied to a level of skill in something, not just on generic class level. Basing it on Class level removes the ability or it to be customized as much as it is. Technically saying an example of "Sense Motive 13 ranks" means you have to be at least 10th level, but it also means you have had to specialize a skill. As for not being feats - they still are not feats. Only a Rogue can gain these skills. It does not say "Feat: Sneak Attack 1" - it says "Rogue Ability: Sneak Attack 1".
"Pardon me for having to ask this, but why are the feats Twin Sword Style, Militia, Improved Unarmed Strike, Flick of the Wrist, and Quick Strike on the rogues bonus feat list?"
* Specifically because I want the Rogue to be as versatile as it is supposed to be by definition and description.
Twin Sword Style is the epitome of the two weapon fighter. And as I have said before I see the Rogue as the most apt to being Two Weapon weilders. Fighters in general are more militant and generally prefer heavy armor, weapons and shields (in general).
Militia is granted because there are those Rogues with Militia background. There are those Rogues who work irectly for a Military organization. In both cases - generally as scouts, perimeter guards, intelligence agents, etc.
Improved Unarmed Strike is allowed because many Rogues are seen as professional Pugilists.
Flick of the Wrist because if ANYONE is a master at the Quick Drawn and hurled dagger - its a Rogue. Think the typical Hustler from the old days. Cheat a Rogue in cards and before you can blink an eye there is a dagger in the table mere inches from your hands.
Quickstrike should be obvious. All of the Traps & Treachery feats are specifically designed for Rogues.
"Also, why give them the class abilities of Dual Weapon Technique, Improved Weapon Training and Weapon Training?"
* As stated previously, I see Rogues as more apt to be dual wielders than any other class. Also to allow the rogue to be versatile enough to concentrate as a Tough or Thug rather than a Thief as they are designed in the Core class. Why should a Thug - someone who is only hired muscle with skils in stealth also, know anything about Traps?
As for the weapons, I did away with the restricted weapon selection. It makes no sense to me. A Sorcerer gets all simple weapons, but a Rogue doesnt? And why are Rogues restricted in weapon choice based on size?? A Fighter isnt - no other class is actually. You dont see a Halfling Fighter restricted to the weapons they gain proficiency in based on their size - so why does a Rogue?
"If you are doing this to the core classes (by this I mean making them much more versatile), then you are most likely doing it for the same reason I did it a few months ago. You are annoyed by the "archetyping" of the core classes, and the presence of the "fake" core classes like the Ranger and Paladin."
* Similar reasons. I do not like some of the classes that have been stereotyped like the Rogue. I want a Rogue that can be a pure Merchant if I choose, or a Pure Thug, or a Pure Burglar. It is supposed to be the most versatile of classes, but is pidgeon holed by its abilities.
As for the Paladin - I have a rare view and created a Holy Warrior. Only those of True Netral alinment cannot have the conviction to champion a Deity, as they are specifically written as "undecided". As for the Ranger, it too got a re-write.
Again - thanks for the Comments!!!
