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Alternate Rogue for Review

Whats your rating?

  • Fantastic - I want to use it in my game.

    Votes: 4 14.8%
  • Cool idea. Might use it myself.

    Votes: 11 40.7%
  • Neutral - Dont care one way or the other.

    Votes: 3 11.1%
  • Eh - Dont really like it, but nice try.

    Votes: 5 18.5%
  • Crap - Worst thing I ever saw.

    Votes: 4 14.8%

Khaalis

Adventurer
This is an alternate version of the base Rogue class as presented in the 3rd Edition Players Handbook. This version of the Rogue expounds on the 3rd Editions idea that not all Rogues are thieves, and that not all Rogues are the same. The Rogue is a skill-based class with a few special abilities to balance them with the other core classes. However, these abilities do not fit ALL forms of Rogues. Why would a specialized Cat Burglar be skilled in the combat techniques of Sneak Attacks? Why would a Merchant style Rogue specialized in Fencing of goods and say for example Forgeries, be skilled in Evasion and Uncanny Dodge?

This version of the Rogue will allow for a more broadened view of the Rogue.

(Note that the Rogues actually gets one less level ability than the Core Rogue, but they are just not predefined as per the core class.)

Please reply with thoughts, comments, etc.


GAME RULE INFORMATION
Rogues have the following game statistics.
Abilities: The same as per the core 3rd edition Rogue.
Alignment: Any
Hit Die: d6

CLASS SKILLS: 8+INT mod.
The class skills of the Rogue are: Appraise, Balance, Bluff, Climb, Craft, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Disguise, Escape Artist, Forgery, Gather Information, Hide, Innuendo, Intimidate, Intuit Direction, Jump, Listen, Move Silently, Open Locks, Perform, Pick Pocket, Profession, Read Lips, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Swim, Tumble, Urban Lore, Use Magical Device, Use Rope, and Wilderness Lore.

Base
Class Attack Saves
Level Bonus Fortitude Reflex Will Special
1 +0 +0 +2 +0 Rogue Ability
2 +1 +0 +3 +0 Rogue Ability
3 +2 +1 +3 +1 Rogue Ability
4 +3 +1 +4 +1 ---
5 +3 +1 +4 +1 2 Rogue Abilities
6 +4 +2 +5 +2 Rogue Ability
7 +5 +2 +5 +2 Rogue Ability
8 +6 +2 +6 +2 ---
9 +6 +3 +6 +3 Rogue Ability
10 +7 +3 +7 +3 2 Rogue Abilities
11 +8 +3 +7 +3 Rogue Ability
12 +9 +4 +8 +4 ---
13 +9 +4 +8 +4 Rogue Ability
14 +10 +4 +9 +4 Rogue Ability
15 +11 +5 +9 +5 2 Rogue Abilities
16 +12 +5 +10 +5 Rogue Ability
17 +12 +5 +10 +5 Rogue Ability
18 +13 +6 +11 +6 ---
19 +14 +6 +11 +6 Rogue Ability
20 +15 +6 +12 +6 2 Rogue Abilities


CLASS FEATURES:
All of the following are class features for the Rogue.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Rogues are proficient in all simple weapons, as well as being able to choose proficiency in 2 of the following weapons: Hand Crossbow, Rapier, Sap, Short Bow, or Short Sword. Rogues are also proficient in light armor but not with shields.

Rogue Ability: A Rogue is not a defined term. Rogues can be woodland bandits, conmen, business entrepreneurs, thugs, loan sharks, cat burglars, beggars, prostitutes, numbers runners, professional game hustlers (i.e. Card Sharks), and so many other concepts. The varied abilities required by each different specialty are developed by the individual over time and reflect the Rogue’s dealings with those that help them learn their specific craft. No two Rogues will ever be exactly the same in their skills. Rogue Abilities are gained as shown in the progression table (same rate as in 3rd Edition core class). At each level that Rogue Abilities are gained, the Rogue chooses one option from the list below (Options). Note that some of these abilities have Prerequisites that are required to attain the ability.

Bonus Feat: The Rogue may choose a bonus feat from the following table. All prerequisites for feats must be met.
Forgotten Realms: Artist, Blooded, Cosmopolitan, Education, Forester, Luck of Heroes, Mercantile Background, Militia, Resist Poison, Silver Palm, Stealthy, Street Smart, Survivor, Thug, Treetopper, Twin Sword Style

PHB: Alertness, Blind-Fighting, Dodge, Expertise, Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Mobility, Quick Draw, Skill Focus, Track, Weapon Finesse

Song & Silence: Acrobatic, Alluring, Arterial Strike, Athletic, Charlatan, Chink in the Armor, Dash, Fleet of Foot, Flick of the Wrist, Hamstring, Jack of all Trades, Persuasive, Pyro, Quicker than the Eye, Snatch Weapon, Trustworthy

Traps & Treachery: Casing Sense, Empathy, Eye for Detail, Fast Talker, Improved Knockout Attack, Improved Ranged Sneak Attack, Improved Sneak Attack, Improvised Thieve’s Tools, Item Creation: Craft Magic Trap, Keen Vision, Knockout Attack, Mechanical Aptitude, Perfect Memory, Poison Immunity, Quickstrike, Shadow, Signature Skill, Stealth

Crippling Strike: If the Rogue has a Base Attack Bonus of +7 or higher and has the ability Sneak Attack V or higher, the Rogue can take this ability. Rogues with this ability can sneak attack opponents with such precision that their blows weaken and hamper them. When the Rogue damages an opponent with a sneak attack, that target also takes 1 point of Strength damage. Ability points lost due to damage, return on their own at the rate of 1 point per day.

Defensive Roll: If the Rogue has 13 ranks or more in Tumble, they can roll with a potentially lethal blow to take less damage from it. Once per day, when a Rogue would be reduced to 0hp or less by damage in combat (from a weapon or blow, not from a spell or special ability), the Rogue can attempt to roll with the damage. They make a Reflex saving throw (DC = Damage Dealt) and, if they are successful, they take only half damage from the blow. They must be aware of the attack and able to react to it in order to execute the Defensive Roll. If they are denied their Dexterity modifier to AC, they cannot roll. Since this effect would not normally allow a Reflex saving throw, the Evasion ability does not apply to the Defensive Roll.

Dual Weapon Technique: If the Rogue has a Base Attack Bonus of +4 or higher as well as having 6 ranks or more in Balance and a Dexterity score of at least 14, and when wearing light or no armor, they may fight with two weapons as if they had the feats Ambidexterity and Two-Weapon Fighting. This bonus is not gained when a Rogue is penalized their dexterity modifier, when they wear medium or heavy armor, or when they wield a double weapon.

Evasion: If the Rogue has 5 ranks or more in Tumble, they may gain the ability of Evasion. If they are exposed to any effect normally allowing a Reflex saving throw for half damage, they take no damage with a successful saving throw. This can only be used when wearing light or no armor.

Improved Evasion: If the Rogue has 13 ranks or more in Tumble and have the Evasion ability, they increase their Evasion ability such that they still take no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw, but they now only take half damage on a failed Reflex saving throw.

Improved Weapon Training: If the Rogue has a Base Attack bonus of +4 or higher and has the Weapon Training Ability, they may choose this ability to become proficient in 1 Martial or Exotic weapon of choice, of up to Medium size.

Opportunist: If the Rogue has a Base Attack Bonus of +7 or higher and 6 or more ranks in Spot they may take this ability. Once per round, the Rogue can make an attack of opportunity against an opponent who has just been struck for damage in melee by another character. This attack counts as the Rogue’s attacks of opportunity for that round. Even a Rogue with the Combat Reflexes feat cannot the opportunist ability more than once per round.

Skill Mastery: The Rogue selects a number of skills equal to 3+ their Intelligence modifier (if positive) that are of rank 13 or higher. When making a skill check with one of these skills, the Rogue may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent them from doing so. They become so certain in their skill, that they can use their skill reliably even under adverse conditions. The Rogue may gain this special ability multiple times, choosing new skills each time.

Slippery Mind: If the Rogue has 13 or more ranks in Sense Motive, they gain the ability to wriggle free of magical effects that would otherwise control or compel them. If the Rogue with this ability is affected by an enchantment and fails their saving throw, 1 round later they can attempt their saving throw again. They only get this one extra attempt to succeed at their saving throw.

Sneak Attack: The Rogue has trained in the specific tactics required to strike vital areas of an unaware target in such a way as to cause extra damage. This is the ability listed in the PHB and follows all of the standard Sneak Attack rules. The ability actually can be taken as 10 different abilities, taken in stages over the Rogue’s career.

Sneak Attack I: When the Rogue takes this ability, it begins as Sneak Attack I. This ability grants +1d6 damage on sneak attacks.

Sneak Attack II: If the Rogue has a Base Attack Bonus of +2 or higher and has the ability Sneak Attack I, this ability grants an extra +1d6 damage on sneak attacks, raising their total extra damage to +2d6.

Sneak Attack III: If the Rogue has a Base Attack Bonus of +3 or higher and has the ability Sneak Attack II, this ability grants an extra +1d6 damage on sneak attacks, raising their total extra damage to +3d6.

Sneak Attack IV: If the Rogue has a Base Attack Bonus of +5 or higher and has the ability Sneak Attack III, this ability grants an extra +1d6 damage on sneak attacks, raising their total extra damage to +4d6.

Sneak Attack V: If the Rogue has a Base Attack Bonus of +6 or higher and has the ability Sneak Attack IV, this ability grants an extra +1d6 damage on sneak attacks, raising their total extra damage to +5d6.

Sneak Attack VI: If the Rogue has a Base Attack Bonus of +8 or higher and has the ability Sneak Attack V, this ability grants an extra +1d6 damage on sneak attacks, raising their total extra damage to +6d6.

Sneak Attack VII: If the Rogue has a Base Attack Bonus of +9 or higher and has the ability Sneak Attack VI, this ability grants an extra +1d6 damage on sneak attacks, raising their total extra damage to +7d6.

Sneak Attack VIII: If the Rogue has a Base Attack Bonus of +11 or higher and has the ability Sneak Attack VII, this ability grants an extra +1d6 damage on sneak attacks, raising their total extra damage to +8d6.

Sneak Attack IX: If the Rogue has a Base Attack Bonus of +12 or higher and has the ability Sneak Attack VIII, this ability grants an extra +1d6 damage on sneak attacks, raising their total extra damage to +9d6.

Sneak Attack X: If the Rogue has a Base Attack Bonus of +14 or higher and has the ability Sneak Attack IX, this ability grants an extra +1d6 damage on sneak attacks, raising their total extra damage to +10d6.

Traps: A Rogue trained in this ability may use the Search skill to locate traps when the task has a Difficulty Class higher than 20. Finding a non-magical trap has a DC of at least 20, higher if it is well hidden. Finding a magic trap has a DC of 25+ the level of the spell used to create it.
Rogues trained in this skill may also attempt to use the Disable Device skill to disarm magical traps (as well as the non-magical traps the skill normally allows for). A magical trap generally has a DC 25+ the level of the spell used to create it.
A Rogue who beats a trap’s DC by 10 or more, can generally study the trap, figure out how it works, and bypass it (with their party) without disarming it.

Uncanny Dodge (AC): If the Rogue has 6 or more ranks in Sense Motive, they can react to danger before their senses would normally have allowed. They retain their Dexterity bonus to AC regardless of being caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker but they still loose their Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized.

Uncanny Dodge (Flanked): If the Rogue has 9 or more ranks in Sense Motive and has the Rogue Ability of Uncanny Dodge (AC), they can no longer be flanked, being able to react to opponents on opposite sides of them as easily as they can react to a single attacker. This defense denies others the ability to use flank attacks on the Rogue. The exception to this defense is if the attackers are of 4+ levels higher than the Rogue.

Uncanny Dodge (Traps): If the Rogue has 14 ranks in Search and have the Traps ability, they have become so attuned to detecting the presence of traps, that they develop an intuitive sense that alerts them danger from traps, giving them a +1 bonus to Reflex saves made to avoid traps and a +1 dodge bonus to AC against attacks by traps. If the Rogue’s ranks in Search increase to 17 the bonus increases to +2. If the Rogue’s ranks in Search increase to 20 the bonus increases to +3. If the Rogue’s ranks in Search increase to 23 the bonus increases to +4.

Weapon Training: If the Rogue has a Base Attack bonus of +1 or higher, they may choose this ability to become proficient in the 3 weapons they did not choose from their original weapon selection at 1st level.
 
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Khaalis

Adventurer
The thing is, that if you look at a Rogue's normal progression, I have already smoothed it out from the rate they gain abilities.

The levels they gain more than one ability is random, which I have smoothed into a pattern, and the "Blank" levels are specifically designed so that they cannot get the Sneak Attack levels until the appropriate level, but still be based on the BAB. These "blank" levels are also identical to the base Rogue progression.

Thanks for the feedback though.
 


Darklone

Registered User
Cool

I like that idea very much. I built the monk in a similar way. Simply giving "feats" for special abilities. Makes multiclassing more interesting. And the prerequisites look nice. Have you considered changing other core classes in a similar way?
 

Darklone

Registered User
Oops

Forgot one thing:

The dualfighting... Why not making it a bit more rogue like and giving them better two weapon fighting with no penalties but they HAVE to use short light weapons (and no sunblades!)? That was the only ability in the list I thought was a little bit too strong. (imagines a rogue with bastard and short sword at lvl5...)
 

Khaalis

Adventurer
To Darklone

"Dual Weapon Technique: If the Rogue has a Base Attack Bonus of +4 or higher as well as having 6 ranks or more in Balance and a Dexterity score of at least 14, and when wearing light or no armor, they may fight with two weapons as if they had the feats Ambidexterity and Two-Weapon Fighting. This bonus is not gained when a Rogue is penalized their dexterity modifier, when they wear medium or heavy armor, or when they wield a double weapon. "

This is based on the Ranger ability - obviously, but it has the prerequisite of not being able to be used until the Rogue has sufficient combat experience (BAB +4 and Balance 6+) as well as being restricted only to Rogues with a Dex 14+. This at least limits the options as to what Rogues will use this ability. Also in my thinking, it makes more sense for a Rogue to be a dual wielder (classically seen as two weapon fighters) than a Ranger who is moer classically seen as a woodsman and archer.

Also note that they are restricted by their weapon selection as to what weapons they can utilize in dual weapon technicque.

"Rogues are proficient in all simple weapons, as well as being able to choose proficiency in 2 of the following weapons: Hand Crossbow, Rapier, Sap, Short Bow, or Short Sword. "

Granted if the Rogue has some levels of a warrior class, then they may use a wider range of martial weapons - however, it is then justified that the Fighter/Rogue is better at wielding bigger weapons than a pure Rogue.

Make sense?

As for other classes, I have posted an Alternate Bard built in the same manner, but altering it to be more what we (co-author and I) felt to be our vision of what a Bard should be.

I am toying with some other ideas, but for now I wanted to bring the Bard into line powerwise with the other classes, and the Rogue I wanted to be more versatile. Not all Rogues are backstabing thieves.
 

Victim

First Post
I think low level rogues lose quite a bit with this variant. Over his first 3 levels, a rogue gets 2 sneak attack dice, traps, Uncanny dodge 1, and evasion. Your variant can't get all that until level 5, at which point he is still one ability behind. In fact, your rogue has one ability less than the PHB one. Did you forget one because Traps is a rogue ability that doesn't show on the advancement chart?

Also, multiclassing might be a problem. Because of their large amount of skill points, Rogues are already an attractive multiclass option. Your variant makes them even more attractive. A fighter rogue could take sneak powers more quickly and easily than a normal rogue. Characters that want feats would pick up some rogue levels, getting both rapid skill and feat advancement.

Finally, I don't like the requirements for many abilites. For example, I don't understand the relation between combat training against multiple opponents and Sense Motive. I think you'd be better off requiring a certain rogue level for many abilties rather than generic requirements. These are rogue only powers, not feats for anyone to take.
 

whatisitgoodfor

First Post
pardon my intrusion

Pardon me for having to ask this, but why are the feats Twin Sword Style, Militia, Improved Unarmed Strike, Flick of the Wrist, and Quick Strike on the rogues bonus feat list?

Also, why give them the class abilities of Dual Weapon Technique, Improved Weapon Training and Weapon Training?

If you are doing this to the core classes (by this I mean making them much more versatile), then you are most likely doing it for the same reason I did it a few months ago. You are annoyed by the "archetyping" of the core classes, and the presence of the "fake" core classes like the Ranger and Paladin.

As I started to put it all together, I realized that all of those combatant techniques, like the things I listed above, really belong to the fighter class, whatever you want to call it.

Anytime you see the NPC Assassin melee sudden death machine, they're going to be a multiclassed fighter/rogue.

--------------
Also, tying sneak attack ability to BAB is really not a good idea. Since it is a fairly powerful ability, tying it to either Dex or a knowledge skill is IMO the best thing to do. (Just be sure to add that knowledge skill to the rogue class skills if you do.) Personally, I tied it to both, requiring a 13+ Dex and 2 ranks of Know. Anatomy for the first one and then increasing both by +2 for every level of Sneak attack they wanted, with no upper cap.

------------
Well, that'e everything I wanted to say, and if you'll post an address (no P.O. boxes please) I'll go ahead and get the check for $0.02 in the mail.
 

Darklone

Registered User
Re: pardon my intrusion

whatisitgoodfor said:
Pardon me for having to ask this, but why are the feats Twin Sword Style, Militia, Improved Unarmed Strike, Flick of the Wrist, and Quick Strike on the rogues bonus feat list?

Also, why give them the class abilities of Dual Weapon Technique, Improved Weapon Training and Weapon Training?

--------------
Also, tying sneak attack ability to BAB is really not a good idea. Since it is a fairly powerful ability, tying it to either Dex or a knowledge skill is IMO the best thing to do. (Just be sure to add that knowledge skill to the rogue class skills if you do.) Personally, I tied it to both, requiring a 13+ Dex and 2 ranks of Know. Anatomy for the first one and then increasing both by +2 for every level of Sneak attack they wanted, with no upper cap.

Well... This rogue is a bit behind but has more combat abilities. About the Flick of the Wrist and so ... Typical rogue stuff.
Tying sneak attack to BAB is the only thing that balances it a bit IMHO ... multiclassing with fighter might increase the BAB a bit faster but it will not give you the feats to buy better sneak attacks. That way you never have much more sneak attack than a core class rogue.
 

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