Alternative Feat Concept [Scaling Feat Chains]

[Nyaricus]

In the past few days, i have been reading various posts, and thinking a lot about a few outstanding issues i have with WotC's Feat system. It is not standardized in any way; new feats are added seemingly at random or as needed. I can understand this from a developers POV, but i don't like it.

I first caught the inkling of an idea reading this thread (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=125238), about my least favourite class: the monk. But it got me thinking, in partcular about having stages of feats, like in Breakstones 3rd entry > but it all being standardized for once (in both function, pre-reques and naming). so here is what i have so far for an idea.

Bascially, feats are catergorized into three or so Catergories (could change depending on what is dug up subsequently in this thread) There would still be feat chains, consisting of four levels which may be attained at regulated levels (and with some chains interwinging), for example, using a Weapon Focus varient here (attainable by all classes, but only truely useful for the fighter because of all his bonus feats [and this system could make the fighter be a viable option at higher levels with all these feats to choose from]) it would look like this:

Weapon Focus (prereqs: Prof w/weapon, BAB +1) | (benefit: +1 bonus to attack rolls with chosen weapon.
Improved Weapon Focus (prereqs: Weapon Focus with weapon, BAB +6) | (benefit: +2 bonus* to attacks rolls with chosen weapon)
Greater Weapon Focus (prereqs: Improved Weapon focus and Weapon Focus with chosen Weapon, BAB +11) | (benefit: +3 bonus* to attack rolls with chosen weapon)
Weapon Focus Mastery (prereqs: Greater Weapon Focus, Improved Weapon focus and Weapon Focus with chosen Weapon, BAB +16) | (benefit: +5 bonus* to attacks rolls with chosen weapon
*not stackable, it overlaps previous version.

this part would standardize the naming, the first in a feat chain would be named XXX, the second would be Improved XXX, the third would be Greater XXX and the last would be called XXX Mastery

also, a substatial "kick" would be given to that last level, showing the superior skills at the high level needed as a prereq.

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other feats would be one-time things, named Improved XXX for things that you already have.

An example for this would be Improved Initative. these feats are obviously a bit more powerful, since there is no further feat chain based off of it. (so itll be about a feat-and-a-half)

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the third catergory would be more one-time feats basically, but the concept is like the first two together in the concept > a one-time feat that allows you to do something you couldnt already do, and a bit powerful as stated before.

these are your Metamagic feats, Item creation, and others, like Track (as is, but i may make it a 4-level feat chain giving differnet bonuses and such; but thats besides the point)

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anyways, i would appreciate feedback on what you think of this, game balance issues, implications that this poses (including potentially increasing the fighters power at higher levels, which is an issue in my opinion), ideas for new feat chains, and anything else.

Thanks all

 

[tjoneslo]

I worked through variations of this idea several times.

If you've seen Spycraft (either version) you would know they have split their feats into several categories; Combat feats, skill feats, style feats, chase feats, and so on. The base D20 system also tries to categorize feats; fighter, general, metamagic, psionic, etc. I liked this idea and split the feats into: Combat (general, ranged, melee, unarmed), Skill feats, Action feats, Social feats. This is for a D20 Modern/Future game so ranged combat (i.e. guns) is more promenent than in D&D.


I'm not sure you can extend every feat tree to exactly four feats. It is realtively simple with the combat feats (e.g. attack, damage, defense, DR). But what happens when you get into the combat style feats. Tumble, mobility, grapple.

If you've looked at D20 modern, you will see the advanced classes all have a 7 level feat tree specific to the class (called class features). So you may want to extend the idea beyond 4 levels so they can be used as a class feature list.

Also some of the current feat trees mix up the effects of the feat trees. For example, +1 to hit, +2 damage, +2 to hit, +4 damage would make a really nice feat tree.

Sorry about the brain dump. It's just on my mind.

 

[Kirin'Tor]

You should really take a look at "Monte Cook Presents: Iron Heroes". A few feats a re general feats (per standard 20), the rest a "Mastery Feats" - feats that can be taken multipel times, each granting increasing effect. Your layout of Weapon Focus very clsoely mirrors the early per of the Weapon Focus mastery tree.

 

[Nyaricus]

I worked through variations of this idea several times.

great! so im not the only one whos thinking this way

If you've seen Spycraft (either version) you would know they have split their feats into several categories; Combat feats, skill feats, style feats, chase feats, and so on. The base D20 system also tries to categorize feats; fighter, general, metamagic, psionic, etc. I liked this idea and split the feats into: Combat (general, ranged, melee, unarmed), Skill feats, Action feats, Social feats. This is for a D20 Modern/Future game so ranged combat (i.e. guns) is more promenent than in D&D.

never seen spycraft myself, and i have only fleetingly flipped through D20 Modern. Im not trying to redesign the system, but just re-organize it so that the progresion makes sense.

I'm not sure you can extend every feat tree to exactly four feats. It is realtively simple with the combat feats (e.g. attack, damage, defense, DR). But what happens when you get into the combat style feats. Tumble, mobility, grapple.

The whole purpose to this is to thiink outside the box. I have changed Weapon Focus and its improved versions because i thought they were inadequate. now, if you look at it, it is now very much so a good fighter/warrior-type feat chain (even though i would make it availiable for everyone) With the improved weapon focus, BAB = 1/2 HD wouldnt be able to get it untill level 12, and after that, they couldnt improve it (if they were a pure class) as for the BAB = 3/4 HD, they wouldnt be able to get weapon focus mastery without breaking from being a "pure" class as well. I suppose you could call that a bit assuming of me, but i will let those who may play this idea judge for them selves.

As for the "combat-style" feats, it will basically be different chains intertwing with each other (or chains that might not have the standardized names [but hopefully that wont be the case]); and some of the PHB feats will be changed in this version. Also, some feats, like great cleave, which are fairly powerful, will be mad harder to get. After all, unless you are a power gamer, it is unlikly that at level 4 you will be able to continually knock down opponent after opponent. Thus, a higher level would be justified.

If you've looked at D20 modern, you will see the advanced classes all have a 7 level feat tree specific to the class (called class features). So you may want to extend the idea beyond 4 levels so they can be used as a class feature list.

i was toying with that very idea (which has been presenting in one thread or another) but i want the classes to be defined as is > each having their own niche to fill, and specific abilities to match. But this is besides the point at the moment. I am simply talking about basic feats for PCs to take, and the design of said feats.

Also some of the current feat trees mix up the effects of the feat trees. For example, +1 to hit, +2 damage, +2 to hit, +4 damage would make a really nice feat tree.

Completely true > BUT . . . for my version of the feat chains/trees using weapon focus and Spec as an example, it would all depend on how far down each chain you went. The PHB weapon focus and spec would only be halfway down the chain (so thus a level 20 fighter in my version who only got the improved versions of both obviously diverged off those chains and focused on other one.)

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anyways, thank you for the feedback > i hope i clarified some things in this, and i will be posting more feat chains soon. Again, i would like to say that the purpose here is not to base these off the ideas of the PHB feat chains. this will use the PHB and other books as resources to come up with balanced feat chains. Furthermore, i encourage you all who have been reading to post and submit ideas for feat chains, and this is one of the main purposes for this. thanks guys and gals, i appreciate it.

 

[Nyaricus]

You should really take a look at "Monte Cook Presents: Iron Heroes". A few feats a re general feats (per standard 20), the rest a "Mastery Feats" - feats that can be taken multipel times, each granting increasing effect. Your layout of Weapon Focus very clsoely mirrors the early per of the Weapon Focus mastery tree.

lmfao and rtfo. I ordered it today after school (before reading this post, if you didnt get that).

I have only heard good things about this book, and i am satisfied that i have actually designed a "fair system" comparable to a system which one of the core rule-guys at WotC created.

Anyways, thank you for the advice/feedback Kirin'Tor > it is appreciated

 

[Nyaricus]

Weapon Specialization Feat Chain
Weapon Specialization (prereqs: Weapon Focus with weapon, BAB +4) | (benefit: +2 damage bonus with chosen weapon).
Improved Weapon Specialization (prereqs: Improved Weapon Focus, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization with weapon, BAB +9) | (benefit: +4 damage bonus with chosen weapon).
Greater Weapon Specialization (prereqs: Greater Weapon Focus, Improved Weapon Focus, Weapon Focus, Improved Weapon Specialization, Weapon Specialization with weapon, BAB +14) | (benefit: +6 damage bonus with chosen weapon).
Weapon Specialization Mastery (prereqs: Greater Weapon Focus, Improved Weapon Focus, Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, Improved Weapon Specialization, Weapon Specialization with weapon, BAB +19) | (benefit: +10 damage bonus with chosen weapon).
*not stackable, it overlaps previous version.

Toughness Feat Chain
Toughness (prereqs: Con +13) | (benefit: you automatically gain +3 Hit Points*)
Improved Toughness (pre-reqs: Con +15, Toughness) | (benefit: you automatically gain +6 Hit Points*)
Greater Toughness (pre-reqs: Con +17, Improved Toughness, Toughness) | (benefit: you automatically gain +9 Hit Points*)
Toughness Mastery (pre-reqs: Con +19, Greater Toughness, Improved Toughness, Toughness) | (benefit: you automatically gain +15 Hit Points*)
*these bonus hitponts all stack; they do not over-lap one another

Dodge Feat Chain
Dodge (prereqs: Dex +13) | (benefit: you gain a +1 dodge bonus to AC* versus on opponent)
Improved Dodge (pre-reqs: Dex +15, Dodge) | (benefit: you gain either a +2 Dodge bonus to AC* versus one opponent, or a +1 dodge Bonus to AC versus 2 opponents)
Greater Dodge (pre-reqs: Dex +17, Dodge, Improved Dodge) | (benefit: you gain either a +3 Dodge bonus to AC* versus one opponent a +1 dodge Bonus to AC versus 3 opponents, or a +2 dodge bonus versus one and two +1 dodge bonuses versus two others)
Dodge Mastery (prereqs: Dex +19, Dodge, Greater Dodge, Improved Dodge) | (benefit: you gain a +5 Dodge bonus to AC* which may be disperessed among your opponents as you wish.)
*these dodge bonuses to AC do not stack, when you gain the next feat in the chain, its bonus dodge value to AC overlaps the older version

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EDIT:
questions i want considered > should there perhaps be a Ref prereq for the dodge chain, and a Fort prereq for the Toughness chain? I know that the improved toughness in CW had a Fort +2 prereq, but do you think that would be a good idea for this??

 

[mfrench]

questions i want considered > should there perhaps be a Ref prereq for the dodge chain, and a Fort prereq for the Toughness chain? I know that the improved toughness in CW had a Fort +2 prereq, but do you think that would be a good idea for this??

Yes, I actually think this would be superior to using Dex and Con as your requirements. Namely, would a high Con character really want to use precious feats on getting a few handsful of HP? However, I can imagine, say, a Ranger who put his top stats in Str, Dex, & Wis wanting to take this tree to make up for a mediocre Con.

Besides, a base Fort requirement will scale it to level much better than stats: with a min-maxing player, as it is written a level 3 dwarf fighter could have toughness mastery; a level 3 elf fighter / level 4 any-race fighter could get dodge mastery; is that really what you were intending? (BTW, I know that very few people would actually sell out to get these at low level, I'm just pointing out that it could happen.)

I like the idea behind the feat trees to make the high-level Fighter a viable character. In my group, I never see anyone take more than 6 levels in fighter, and very rarely more than 4.

 

[Nyaricus]

Yes, I actually think this would be superior to using Dex and Con as your requirements. Namely, would a high Con character really want to use precious feats on getting a few handsful of HP? However, I can imagine, say, a Ranger who put his top stats in Str, Dex, & Wis wanting to take this tree to make up for a mediocre Con.

Besides, a base Fort requirement will scale it to level much better than stats: with a min-maxing player, as it is written a level 3 dwarf fighter could have toughness mastery; a level 3 elf fighter / level 4 any-race fighter could get dodge mastery; is that really what you were intending? (BTW, I know that very few people would actually sell out to get these at low level, I'm just pointing out that it could happen.)

I like the idea behind the feat trees to make the high-level Fighter a viable character. In my group, I never see anyone take more than 6 levels in fighter, and very rarely more than 4.

Thanks for the feedback mfrench, i appreciate it that you like it, and the fact that you can back up my (and others) arguments that high level fighters are redundant due to bad feat selections. My hope is that with my system of scaling feat chains (which guess is the term I'll use for them) High level fights can have some nice firepower behind 'em - while still being balanced. Ironically enough (read: i am ****ing ****ed off) I am still waiting for my gaming store to get Iron Heroes - In my previous post on Sept 8 i had it ordered. Its Nov 3rd. ARRRG!!! BUt i want to see what Monte had for his feats - as was said before, i understadn that they are similar in context to mine in some respects.

I don't want to only reward the fighter with this system - that is just a nice byproduct of it all that fits nicely. As for the Fort and Ref prereqs, I'l edit those ASAP > you are right in that a Dwarf could have that WAY too quickly. Once i figure out a nice claan number for them, I'll edit that post. Obviously they'll start with +2 as a prereq, but we'll see to what comes after that.

Thanks again mfrench for helping this. I'd much appreciate more feedback and submissions from you and of course others . . . lets see how far this will take use, shall we??

 

[NexusX]

Glad to see I'm not the only one who thinks there are too many feats when there should be Feat Families (or whatever you call them in your campaign). I've been grouping and renaming feats ever since 3.0 came out and I couldn't find those great 2nd Edition Weapon Specialization feat tree like thingy they used to have in the original Unearthed Arcana. I never could keep track of all the different feats, so I started grouping them, making them more manageable, kind of like you guys are doing here. I ran out of time and never finished fleshing the system out. You guys have some neat ideas. In my mind, feat chains or feat trees/families whatever, of related feats is the only way to go.

It also has the byproduct of showing us where feats could use expanding (those feats that only have 1 or 2 in the tree). We don't need 90 million combat feats, but several feat chains would be nice, organized and manageable. Since my version was inspired by the 2nd Edition rules, I had my 5 ranks and named them Proficient, Specialization, Double Specialization, Expert and Master ... but the naming isn't as important as consistency in naming. Hats off to you guys for exploring this needed area!

NexusX

 

[Nyaricus]

Thanks NexusX!! and Welcome to EN World (i see that this is your first post )

I agree completely with you here in that feats need to be more organised. I am basically getting to the point where i am caling this system "the Scaling Feat Chain System". There are still some oddball feats here and there (i.e. Improved Init, etc) But most i was in formally organised feat chains, often with a"boost" at the end, for spending so many feats to get there. Four is just a nice number which i am using - anyhting more and i think it may be too much (at least in 3.x).

So, Mfrench, tjoneslo, and NexusX have both given some good feedback - is there any want by some or all of you to help craft a 3.5 feat chain system? I'd love to work this system out so that it is balanced and viable. So long as we are all on the same page here (mainly the edition of D&D) i wouldn't see a problem here . . . So, whadda you all think??