Alternatives to At-Will Magic

[UngeheuerLich]

I'd suggest a first level spell called, say, "Cantrip" which lets you cast a set number of any minor magics that you know, for example, four.

even if that is how it used to be in an older edition, it is still a bad idea...

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I'm definitely on board with removing magic missile from the cantrip line-up and broadening the base to have basic conjugation of evocation effects that would be useful in the lab - heat, shock, chill, corrode, illuminate, dim, mage hand, Etc.

- Marty Lund

as long as they scale appropriately...

 

[Mengu]

Depends on why you want to limit at-will magic.

Problem: You think it's unbalancing because the wizard/cleric never runs out of ammo.
Solution: Attach a material component that might be replenished in civilization, much like arrows and bolts.

Problem: You think it's the wrong flavor for D&D.
Solution: If you feel wands with charges are the right flavor, then allow the caster to create/recharge wands during extended rests, or when they are in civilization, for a modest material cost. When they run out of charges, they have to refill or remake a wand.

Problem: You think magic should be rare.
Solution: Reflavor spells into more mundane things. Turn shocking grasp into a whack with your staff (and after level X, it might be a shocking staff), turn magic missile into a sling shot (or as I reflavored in an old campaign for my barbarian/mage with subtle magic, a hurled axe). Keep in mind the wizard needs things to do during his turn that are fun and contribute to the fight. Having to swing a staff or throw darts with a low attack stat and constantly missing, or hitting for piddly damage is neither fun nor effective. You could alternatively let a wizard use his staff with his intelligence, or some such.

Problem: You don't have a problem with magic rarity, but clerics shooting rays out of their eyes bothers you.
Solution: Reflavor it into what you think clerics should be doing. Maybe you summon a tiny light archon that hovers next to you, and shoots radiant bolts at enemies you designate as an action. Maybe you imbue your bow with Corellon's divine power and are shooting arrows with a trail of radiant energy. Maybe you hurl Moradin's Hammer at your enemies, and it returns to your hand after each throw.

Problem: You don't want it because it's 4e.
Solution: Pretend 4e never existed and this is a brand new concept introduced in your favorite new edition of D&D.

 

[erleni]

I'm not quite sold on at-will magic missiles. Tonight's adventure saw the wizard cast her big spells, then the rest of the night "magic missile for 2", "magic missile for 4", "are they within 100 feet? Ok, magic missile". Is it much different than "Attack with my crossbow"? Not really, but it was a lot different than "I pour oil out and light it with my torch to try to seal the goblins off", which is what we used to do in AD&D when out of spells.

Do you want to play a wizard or a pyromaniac? Wizards should use magic. I really can't understand people who want to play a wizard that resorts to mundane stuff for 50% of the time or more (sorry for the rant).

 

[mlund]

as long as they scale appropriately...

That depends on what scale is appropriate. The wizard is already expanding his array of spell levels each level, so his overall damage output is already scaling. You could probably have cantrips stay flat and become nigh irrelevant to combat at middle-to-high levels and not really hobble the wizard. If they do scale it would be a a much-reduced rate - perhaps by some sort of linear bonus to the damage of all arcane evocation or conjuration effects the wizard uses.

And extra magic-missile per 2 levels maxing out of 5 isn't going to fit that curve as a cantrip.

- Marty Lund

 

[UngeheuerLich]

That depends on what scale is appropriate. The wizard is already expanding his array of spell levels each level, so his overall damage output is already scaling. You could probably have cantrips stay flat and become nigh irrelevant to combat at middle-to-high levels and not really hobble the wizard. If they do scale it would be a a much-reduced rate - perhaps by some sort of linear bonus to the damage of all arcane evocation or conjuration effects the wizard uses.

And extra magic-missile per 2 levels maxing out of 5 isn't going to fit that curve as a cantrip.

- Marty Lund

Do you have some special insight? I don´t know what is expected above level 3? Do you?

I also did not say, that MM scaling is perfect. We just don´t know, what is appropriate for a cantrip.

On the other hand, I think at-will attack and even utility magic is absolutely unflavourful.
Being able to use cantrips more than once per day, np. Being able to produce light for no cost? I don´t think so. can´t it have at least some material cost attacked to it?
Some limitations per day? Or until you take a short rest?

And lets assume, at-wills should really not scale, then MM should be no at will.

 

[mlund]

Do you have some special insight? I don´t know what is expected above level 3? Do you?

Higher level spells whose progression is semi-linear and mostly rational in relation to progression between levels 1-3 is probably a safe bet based on all the WotC blogs and chats so far.

I also did not say, that MM scaling is perfect. We just don´t know, what is appropriate for a cantrip.

I'm willing to bet it is somewhere between "I could do that with a mundane weapon" and "I could do that with a first level spell."

On the other hand, I think at-will attack and even utility magic is absolutely unflavourful.

That's unfortunate for you. Hopefully they'll be a convenient module or simple house-rule you can use when playing a Wizard or you can play at a table with like-minded individuals who won't offend your sensibilities.

Being able to use cantrips more than once per day, np. Being able to produce light for no cost? I don´t think so can´t it have at least some material cost attacked to it?

I think that might be the most appropriate and flavorful solution. Replace crossbow attacks with magic that consumes components at the same rate as a crossbow consumes bolts - light as per torches, etc. It'll be a bit more efficient, and most groups will just hand-wave the "ammunition" rules, but it'll be there for the pedantic. I like the idea of at least hanging a lampshade on the idea of some sort of exchange system of hermetic magic.

And lets assume, at-wills should really not scale, then MM should be no at will.

Exactly my point.

- Marty Lund

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Higher level spells whose progression is semi-linear and mostly rational in relation to progression between levels 1-3 is probably a safe bet based on all the WotC blogs and chats so far.

And this has nothing to do with cantrips.
We don´t know, if you lose your first level slots over time. So at wills need to scale up to an effectiveness of somewhat below the weakest spell you can cast...

I'm willing to bet it is somewhere between "I could do that with a mundane weapon" and "I could do that with a first level spell."
- Marty Lund

Totally right. When mundane weapons, based on level advancement start getting better than a first level spell, your cantrip is actually better than your first level spell...

Of course, I guess that magic users won´t get improved base attacks. But with the current monster design, a single magic missile won´t help at all at level 8. 4 Missiles of 1d4 however would work perfectly as an at will controller spell.
Against a single opponent it does considerable damage, but most probably less than a fighter with his weapon, against many low level opponents, you could use it to kill 1-4 per round...
Maybe this design is intentional...

So no, you don´t have special insight, but you are jumpng to conclusions...

Oh, and don´t worry... I will have no problems houseruling or handwaving... or start raging about something like scaling at will magic... hope it won´t end up unfortunate for you...

 

[mlund]

And this has nothing to do with cantrips.

It has everything to do with cantrips. As you have a larger supply of more powerful spell effects at your disposal you have much less reason to spend your action in a turn on a cantrip.

We don´t know, if you lose your first level slots over time.

The structure presented in the play-test was a traditional accumulation of spell slots, concurrent with a convenient character sheet chart with total spell slots for spell levels from 1st to 7th.

Absolutely nothing suggests the faintest hint you might "lose your first level slots over time."

Totally right. When mundane weapons, based on level advancement start getting better than a first level spell

Stop right there. Mundane weapons do not "get better." They have the same exact profile they always had. Certain character classes give bonuses to damage with mundane weapons, bonus attacks, etc. That's not the same thing. That's what they get while Wizards are getting Fireballs and Lightning Bolts and Cloudkills and all that other escalated damage shenanigans in their spells.

Vancian spell-casting uses Limited-Use Damage Expressions - higher damage (or the equivalent), less times per day. Escalating cantrip damage at the same rate as specialist melee attack damage-per-round would discard any semblance of balance between Vancian casters and other classes. You'd wind up having to give Rogues and Fighters Limited-Use Damage Expression powers and we'd just be having 4th Edition warmed over with all the gnashing of teeth and rending or garments that went before.

Of course, I guess that magic users won´t get improved base attacks. But with the current monster design, a single magic missile won´t help at all at level 8. 4 Missiles of 1d4 however would work perfectly as an at will controller spell.

No. Using the current curve presented in the play-test an 8th level wizard could be expected to have the following at his disposal.

4 - 1st level spells
4 - 2nd level spells
4 - 3rd level spells
Infinite Cantrips

Of those 1st level spells and cantrips only Magic Missile has scaled in any way, now giving 3 unerring missiles of 1d4+1 damage each every round. Magic missile and its scaling is the nail sticking up, and it's begging to get hammered down.

I'd much rather see an option for gradual linear scaling of cantrip or all arcane spell damage - some sort of blanket +1 damage per 2 caster levels or something. It isn't perfect, but it helps the lower-end spells of the wizard (including cantrips) be better combat resources without the unfortunate mess that was Fireball scaling to 10d6 damage at 10th level using the same spell slot it did at 5th level.

Maybe this design is intentional...

Highly unlikely according to evidence. It goes against the premise of "lab-ready abilities co-opted for combat" that Mearls rolled out and later reinforced when questioned. It looks way more like a hasty cut-and-paste job out of earlier editions of the magic missile spell - just like the admitted stop-gap cut-and-paste job done on the armor tables.

So no, you don´t have special insight,

Definitely. Reading comprehension is hardly a special insight.

- Marty Lund

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Yeah, but reading comprehension* also includes:

not reading between the lines. Interpreting things into something you read that´s just no there.

The sheet for example was done by the artist. Assuming there are only 7 levels of spells is as wrong as it is to assume, level 1 slots don´t fade out... (which is not too likely, but this idea is passed around here...)
Maybe it is a bad idea to have a sheet thatyou can only use for 3 levels and you need a different character sheet later...

you could get spells like that:

3
4
41
42
.
.
4442

or you may progress like that:

3
4
41
42
331
222
0231
.
.
.

or even that way:

3
4
41
42
u31

where u stands for unlimited...

we just don´t know. It is not possible to extrapolate based on 3 levels.

So, but I stop here. I think you quite rude and I don´t want to be drawn in such a discussion any longer...

Have fun with your speculations...

*you should actually read your own statement again:

It is not that the mundane weapon gets better, but "what you can do with amundane weapon" And the fighter might pretty fast be better with a mundane crossbow, than you are with a magic missile... especially if he is a slayer...