Garthanos
Arcadian Knight
except advancing levels ... not free.
D&D 4E Am I crazy? I've just gotten a hankering to play 4e again...
AbdulAlhazred
Legend
Clearly SCs need to be quite dynamic, they need a PLOT. My SCs are a story unto themselves, though obviously they can be a pretty simple story. A complexity 1 challenge can be quite adequately handled with 3 states, where each one has 1-2 approaches. That gives you 3 acts. It might accomplish something like say "get inside the wall of the castle." You have approach, scaling, and avoiding detection/dealing with the guard at the top.
Now, you have to consider 'composition' and 'framing' in terms of exactly what you are doing, and the scale/granularity of the action. This can vary depending on the nature of the challenge, its part in an overall story arc. if it is simply prefatory, basic buildup kind of stuff where there is conflict, but issues aren't going to reach a real head, maybe the 'approaching the castle' is a good option. There's probably a whole bunch of other situations within the whole 'castle sequence' (whatever it is about). This one isn't the big focus.
OTOH you could run a whole infiltration mission as one SC, probably a higher complexity one (3 at least, unless again this all just build up). So here there might be 4 or 5 elements within the overall theme of getting in, doing whatever you came to do, and getting out. I'm thinking the "doing" part is probably element 4 here. You could even drop a combat into element 4, it is quite permissible to do this (just as 4e talks about having an SC in a combat, you can have a combat in an SC too).
I think something like a complexity 5 is really one where you're going to bring it out as the ultimate focus. You got everything you need to perform the ritual of opening, and now you have to get the magic just right, and then deal with what happens when the Forever Sealed Gate finally opens! (yeah, ok, that part is a fight, this is after all 4e...).
Now, you have to consider 'composition' and 'framing' in terms of exactly what you are doing, and the scale/granularity of the action. This can vary depending on the nature of the challenge, its part in an overall story arc. if it is simply prefatory, basic buildup kind of stuff where there is conflict, but issues aren't going to reach a real head, maybe the 'approaching the castle' is a good option. There's probably a whole bunch of other situations within the whole 'castle sequence' (whatever it is about). This one isn't the big focus.
OTOH you could run a whole infiltration mission as one SC, probably a higher complexity one (3 at least, unless again this all just build up). So here there might be 4 or 5 elements within the overall theme of getting in, doing whatever you came to do, and getting out. I'm thinking the "doing" part is probably element 4 here. You could even drop a combat into element 4, it is quite permissible to do this (just as 4e talks about having an SC in a combat, you can have a combat in an SC too).
I think something like a complexity 5 is really one where you're going to bring it out as the ultimate focus. You got everything you need to perform the ritual of opening, and now you have to get the magic just right, and then deal with what happens when the Forever Sealed Gate finally opens! (yeah, ok, that part is a fight, this is after all 4e...).
AbdulAlhazred
Legend
Well, yeah, this is why I only use SCs. I don't even consider there to be 'free checks' at all. If there's no conflict, just "say yes". If there IS conflict then regulate the magnitude of success with an SC, and why have anything really interesting hinge on one die roll? (It may still come down to that, all well and good).
What I mean is, attacks have a success and magnitude.
As you gain power, your success chance (modifier) goes up, and the magnitude (damage, effect caused) also goes up.
Skills, on the other hand, only have success scaling.
This happens in both skill challenges in 4e, and in almost every version of 5e.
4e has skill powers; and some games with less anemic skill systems have stuff like "skill tricks" or the like. Things you can do at a higher skill level.
In 5e, spell DCs go up with the spellcaster's level and skill. The effect of the spell goes up as well. So we have a success and magnitude thing there. Same with attacks; hit chance goes up, and effect on hit also scales.
Doing something similar for skills, without having an entire book of skill tricks, is a bit harder.
But you could imagine reframing skills.
Stealth: You make a skill check to find out how well you sneak. You then roll dice to see how far and how fast you can sneak with that check.
Acrobatics: You make a skill check to roll with a fall, shift, or move on a precarious surface. You then roll dice to determine how much damage you reduce, how far you shift, or how far you move on the precarious surface.
Athletics:
Grappling success applies "hold"; enemy has to defeat hold to break free.
Lifting success lets you move it; magnitude check is how far and how long.
Jumping success gets you bonus distance (higher DC for less strait lead-up, distractions, etc); magnitude check is how much extra.
Running success similar.
Arcana:
Arcana success gives you information; magnitude determines how much you resist the madness/drain of that knowledge.
Various Knowledge:
Success means you know where the information is; Magnitude determines how hard it is to get.
Tracking
Success means you follow tracks; magnitude is how fast. (a high magnitude might mean you can find a shortcut!)
Not every skill would fit this; you might have to change which skills exist. And have a magnitude system.
Then, instead of piles of stuff boosting your chance of success, they can alias over to boosting the magnitude. And instead of "autosuccess vs autofailure" skill check problems, it becomes more like damage; every little bit helps.
Thank you. Lots of good reading.
That got me thinking; how would you present Skill Challenges in a way that conveys their dynamic nature, without confusing your average DM? As you say, examples can only show so much of the improv needed. But maybe that is the only way. Just having (much) better examples than what 4e gave us.
RangerWickett
Legend
I've tried to come up with ideas for 5e skill challenges to represent secret spy missions.
Secret Missions
While freeform ingenuity is part of what makes a spy mission or heist so exciting, it can be useful for the game master and players to have a general structure for how to resolve these scenes.
First the game master designs the mission by determining a variety of obstacles. Then the player characters have a chance to assess the challenge and prepare for the mission. Finally, for each obstacle they must devise a way to overcome it and achieve their objective.
The skill challenge has one phase for the game master – design the mission – and two phases for the players – before the mission and during the mission.
The game master decides which obstacles will be apparent to the party, and which are hidden. For example, during a museum heist, it might not take the party any special effort to learn the layout of the museum, but the nature of any alarms would be hidden.
Similarly, while most obstacles must be overcome in the moment, some obstacles can be dealt with before the beginning the mission. For example, if the party’s stealing a relic only on display during a museum gala, they might need an invitation to get in. A character could simply try to smooth-talk their way in, but forging or stealing an invitation in advance could be a safer option.
Coming up with good obstacles requires a bit of finesse. Sometimes the group will all cooperate to prepare for the mission, but only send one character in. Other times they’ll be working in different places to bypass multiple challenges simultaneously. Either is fine.
Ability Check DCs. A typical obstacle requires a DC 10 check, but if a PC attempts something that’s suboptimal, this might increase the DC by 2. For instance, it’s easier to acquire an invitation to a gala in advance (DC 10) than to bluff your way in without one (DC 12). Likewise it’s easier to bypass various security doors in a museum when you’re there (DC 10) than to figure out what keys you need in advance (DC 12). But sometimes the party has no choice, like if the group’s locksmith can’t attend the gala.
The most common efforts before the mission are to surveil and to prepare. Surveilling gets more information, which can reveal hidden obstacles or provide advantage in dealing with one of the obstacles. Preparing attempts to overcome an obstacle in advance, usually by acquiring the right tools – costumes, keys, passports, vehicles – or setting up favorable conditions – scouting an escape route, sabotaging an alarm, or getting the guards on your side.
Surveillance. A character looks for more information about the mission site, or the people involved, and then makes a skill check, typically DC 10.
They might try to examine a secure facility’s defenses up close while looking innocuous with Charisma (Stealth), or gather rumors about a gala by hobnobbing in high society with Charisma (Investigation). A long stakeout to learn guard patterns could be a Constitution (Perception) check.
On a success, first, the game master should provide a clear hint about whether there are any hidden obstacles in the mission. Then the character chooses one of the known obstacles and grants advantage to any checks that are made to overcome that obstacle.
If a second character succeeds in surveilling, they learn thoroughly about any hidden obstacles, and they choose a known obstacle and grant advantage to checks to overcome it.
If a character fails, they can simply accept the failure, or they can try again, but this increases the DC by 5. For instance, they might try to gather rumors, but when no one talks they could try being more explicit, which puts people on guard. If they fail a second time, they suffer some a complication (see below).
Preparation. A character chooses a known obstacle and narrates how they intend to solve it in advance, then makes a skill check.
They might craft costumes with Intelligence check with weaver’s tools, purchase fake passports with Charisma (Deception), steal keys with Dexterity (Sleight of Hand), or position a sailboat for a quick getaway with Wisdom check with water vehicles.
Usually the game master rolls in secret to determine how good the character’s preparations are, and the character cannot try again. Sometimes the character will know if they fail (such as if they try to steal keys) and, just like with surveillance, they can try again, but the DC increases by 5, and if they fail a second time they suffer a complication.
If they succeed, the group will find out during the mission when someone tries to rely on the preparation to overcome an obstacle. If they fail, the character who’s active in the mission probably gets caught with their pants down, but that doesn’t mean they’ve failed. They can still try and improvise a solution, but this increases the DC by 5.
If the character fails, they have the choice to either abandon the effort, which usually means the mission has failed, or to try again, which increases the DC by 5. If they fail on their second check against a given obstacle, they suffer a complication.
Some obstacles need to be dealt with sequentially, and so all PCs could be present, but still only one character is taking the lead. At the game master’s discretion it might be reasonable for other characters to assist somehow and grant advantage, but that’s not always viable. In other situations the party will need to handle multiple challenges at the same time, forcing them to split up.
Deflecting Blame. A common player-imposed obstacle will be deflecting the blame of your actions to frame someone else. A character who takes the lead in this task narrates their plan, and then if necessary makes a check, usually against DC 10. Usually a character gets only one chance at this, and cannot try again if they fail.
Typically an effort to deflect blame must be done during the mission, but sometimes it can be done before the mission. If trying to frame a priest for defacing a rival god’s temple, they might scrawl appropriate quotes from scripture with Intelligence (Religion). To make the public suspect the head of the constabulary committed a murder, before they undertake their assassination they might print false threats of his toward the victim using Intelligence (Deception), or even make those threats in person with Charisma (Disguise Kit).
For example, if during a museum gala heist a character tries to cause a distraction so that the guests and guards aren’t looking while another ally snatches the relic, two failures means at least some people in the crowd figure out what the character was up to. If, though, the character trying to bypass the alarm on the case holding the relic fails twice, they might have to just smash it open, which immediately summons the guards.
The game master should try to make sure a complication isn’t automatically a failure. The party might defeat a few guards in battle, which cows the rest for a moment, letting the characters flee. Or they might just need to overcome a new obstacle, and make an ability check (now with disadvantage) to outrun the guards and avoid a fight.
Another complication might be a loss of face, such as if a character is surveilling by hobnobbing at a fancy party and is seen as gauche for asking too-pointed questions. A complication could cause a character to suffer a level of exhaustion, or damage (something between 1d6 and 1d10 per level). As always make sure any mechanical penalty is justified by the narrative and story.
Secret Missions
While freeform ingenuity is part of what makes a spy mission or heist so exciting, it can be useful for the game master and players to have a general structure for how to resolve these scenes.
First the game master designs the mission by determining a variety of obstacles. Then the player characters have a chance to assess the challenge and prepare for the mission. Finally, for each obstacle they must devise a way to overcome it and achieve their objective.
The skill challenge has one phase for the game master – design the mission – and two phases for the players – before the mission and during the mission.
Design the Mission
To design a secret mission as a skill challenge, the game master should come up with a number of obstacles – usually at least two, but not more than the number of PCs. Additionally, players have the option to make things more complicated for themselves by adding obstacles, such as trying to frame someone else for whatever damage they cause. The more obstacles, of course, the more likely the party is to fail the mission.The game master decides which obstacles will be apparent to the party, and which are hidden. For example, during a museum heist, it might not take the party any special effort to learn the layout of the museum, but the nature of any alarms would be hidden.
Similarly, while most obstacles must be overcome in the moment, some obstacles can be dealt with before the beginning the mission. For example, if the party’s stealing a relic only on display during a museum gala, they might need an invitation to get in. A character could simply try to smooth-talk their way in, but forging or stealing an invitation in advance could be a safer option.
Coming up with good obstacles requires a bit of finesse. Sometimes the group will all cooperate to prepare for the mission, but only send one character in. Other times they’ll be working in different places to bypass multiple challenges simultaneously. Either is fine.
Ability Check DCs. A typical obstacle requires a DC 10 check, but if a PC attempts something that’s suboptimal, this might increase the DC by 2. For instance, it’s easier to acquire an invitation to a gala in advance (DC 10) than to bluff your way in without one (DC 12). Likewise it’s easier to bypass various security doors in a museum when you’re there (DC 10) than to figure out what keys you need in advance (DC 12). But sometimes the party has no choice, like if the group’s locksmith can’t attend the gala.
Before the Mission
After the game master has designed the mission, they narrate what the player characters know about the mission and its non-hidden obstacles. Then each PC can undertake one effort before the mission starts. The player narrates what they’re doing and makes an ability check.The most common efforts before the mission are to surveil and to prepare. Surveilling gets more information, which can reveal hidden obstacles or provide advantage in dealing with one of the obstacles. Preparing attempts to overcome an obstacle in advance, usually by acquiring the right tools – costumes, keys, passports, vehicles – or setting up favorable conditions – scouting an escape route, sabotaging an alarm, or getting the guards on your side.
Surveillance. A character looks for more information about the mission site, or the people involved, and then makes a skill check, typically DC 10.
They might try to examine a secure facility’s defenses up close while looking innocuous with Charisma (Stealth), or gather rumors about a gala by hobnobbing in high society with Charisma (Investigation). A long stakeout to learn guard patterns could be a Constitution (Perception) check.
On a success, first, the game master should provide a clear hint about whether there are any hidden obstacles in the mission. Then the character chooses one of the known obstacles and grants advantage to any checks that are made to overcome that obstacle.
If a second character succeeds in surveilling, they learn thoroughly about any hidden obstacles, and they choose a known obstacle and grant advantage to checks to overcome it.
If a character fails, they can simply accept the failure, or they can try again, but this increases the DC by 5. For instance, they might try to gather rumors, but when no one talks they could try being more explicit, which puts people on guard. If they fail a second time, they suffer some a complication (see below).
Preparation. A character chooses a known obstacle and narrates how they intend to solve it in advance, then makes a skill check.
They might craft costumes with Intelligence check with weaver’s tools, purchase fake passports with Charisma (Deception), steal keys with Dexterity (Sleight of Hand), or position a sailboat for a quick getaway with Wisdom check with water vehicles.
Usually the game master rolls in secret to determine how good the character’s preparations are, and the character cannot try again. Sometimes the character will know if they fail (such as if they try to steal keys) and, just like with surveillance, they can try again, but the DC increases by 5, and if they fail a second time they suffer a complication.
If they succeed, the group will find out during the mission when someone tries to rely on the preparation to overcome an obstacle. If they fail, the character who’s active in the mission probably gets caught with their pants down, but that doesn’t mean they’ve failed. They can still try and improvise a solution, but this increases the DC by 5.
During the Mission
After each member of the party has taken an effort, the game master and players collaboratively narrate how they approach the obstacles of the mission. For each obstacle, one character takes the lead in overcoming it. They describe what they’re doing, and if necessary they’ll roll a check to determine whether they succeed.If the character fails, they have the choice to either abandon the effort, which usually means the mission has failed, or to try again, which increases the DC by 5. If they fail on their second check against a given obstacle, they suffer a complication.
Some obstacles need to be dealt with sequentially, and so all PCs could be present, but still only one character is taking the lead. At the game master’s discretion it might be reasonable for other characters to assist somehow and grant advantage, but that’s not always viable. In other situations the party will need to handle multiple challenges at the same time, forcing them to split up.
Deflecting Blame. A common player-imposed obstacle will be deflecting the blame of your actions to frame someone else. A character who takes the lead in this task narrates their plan, and then if necessary makes a check, usually against DC 10. Usually a character gets only one chance at this, and cannot try again if they fail.
Typically an effort to deflect blame must be done during the mission, but sometimes it can be done before the mission. If trying to frame a priest for defacing a rival god’s temple, they might scrawl appropriate quotes from scripture with Intelligence (Religion). To make the public suspect the head of the constabulary committed a murder, before they undertake their assassination they might print false threats of his toward the victim using Intelligence (Deception), or even make those threats in person with Charisma (Disguise Kit).
Complications
Complications come if a character fails two attempts of the same action during a secret mission. The most common sort is that the character’s efforts leave a clue that – usually after the mission is over – can direct investigators toward the party. Sometimes the clue can be rather blatant and can cause people to immediately view the character as a threat.For example, if during a museum gala heist a character tries to cause a distraction so that the guests and guards aren’t looking while another ally snatches the relic, two failures means at least some people in the crowd figure out what the character was up to. If, though, the character trying to bypass the alarm on the case holding the relic fails twice, they might have to just smash it open, which immediately summons the guards.
The game master should try to make sure a complication isn’t automatically a failure. The party might defeat a few guards in battle, which cows the rest for a moment, letting the characters flee. Or they might just need to overcome a new obstacle, and make an ability check (now with disadvantage) to outrun the guards and avoid a fight.
Another complication might be a loss of face, such as if a character is surveilling by hobnobbing at a fancy party and is seen as gauche for asking too-pointed questions. A complication could cause a character to suffer a level of exhaustion, or damage (something between 1d6 and 1d10 per level). As always make sure any mechanical penalty is justified by the narrative and story.
Garthanos
Arcadian Knight
In 4e we have Intimidate and Bluff skills affecting multiple enemies in functional effect magnitude then expands with available targets over the end effect of multiple die rolls
I kind of thought Degree of Success tied up in one roll always made sense. We could make magnitude part of DCs as another option. (is that kind of already there?)
What if particularly good rolls on a skill check might result in more than one skill challenge success just like having the perfect ritual or practice or even perfect bribe or similar might progress a SC by 2 successes.
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Sure, you can split one roll into both.
But with d20 systdms, either magnitude dorsn't correlate strongly with skill, or non trivial magnitude implies auto success.
In turn, this makes contributions of wide skill ranges not work. The old +30 vs +5 modifier problem; on a d20 they are not playing the same game. If +30 can fail, +5 shouldn't bother rolling.
With success-and-magnitude, +10 vs +5 with a larger magnitude on +10 can emulate a similar skill difference. But now, the same DC can have bith with a reasonable failure chance.
This is the D&D attack model.
