Tony Vargas
Legend
Ookay.. are we excluding any sort of text from 'lore?'
D&D 4E Am I crazy? I've just gotten a hankering to play 4e again...
- Thread starter Eyes of Nine
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That would be an odd statement to make, though. B/X and AD&D (at least 1st ed) have very clear and easily-found rules on how to calculate the XP awards for defeating a monster. Gygax's AD&D also has slightly less clear rules on how to calculate the XP for recovering treasure based on the difficulty of obtaining it. (In B/X I think it' just 1:1.)
I'll do one comparison: gnolls.
Gygax's AD&D:
Gnolls travel and live in rapacious bands of loose organization, with the largest dominating the rest. These bands recognize no other gnoll as supreme, but they do not necessarily dislike other bands, and on occasion two or more such groups will ioin together briefly in order to fight, raid, loot, or similarly have greater chance of success against some common foe or potential victim. They are adaptable and inhabit nearly any area save those which are arctic and/or arid. They hove a so-called king, very powerful personally and with a double normal-sized following, but his authority extends only as far as his reach
<This is followed by rules for the ration of leaders to followers, and numbers of women and children in lairs>
Gnolls are subterranean 85% of the time, but occasionally (15%) they will take up residence in an abandoned (or cleared) village or building of some sort.
<This is followed by chances of various sorts of hangers on, like trolls or giant hyenas, and numbers of captives in a lair, and distribution of armaments among gnoll warriors>
Gnolls will generally be on friendly terms with orcs, hobgoblins, bugbears, ogres, and even trolls - providing the weaker types are not very much weaker in numbers and the gnolls are relatively equal in strength to the
stronger monsters.
Gnolls are strong, but they dislike work and are not good miners. They have infravision. They speak their racial tongue, chaotic evil, troll, and often (60%) orcish and/or hobgoblin.
<The entry concludes with a visual description of gnolls, their armour and their typical lifespan>
<This is followed by rules for the ration of leaders to followers, and numbers of women and children in lairs>
Gnolls are subterranean 85% of the time, but occasionally (15%) they will take up residence in an abandoned (or cleared) village or building of some sort.
<This is followed by chances of various sorts of hangers on, like trolls or giant hyenas, and numbers of captives in a lair, and distribution of armaments among gnoll warriors>
Gnolls will generally be on friendly terms with orcs, hobgoblins, bugbears, ogres, and even trolls - providing the weaker types are not very much weaker in numbers and the gnolls are relatively equal in strength to the
stronger monsters.
Gnolls are strong, but they dislike work and are not good miners. They have infravision. They speak their racial tongue, chaotic evil, troll, and often (60%) orcish and/or hobgoblin.
<The entry concludes with a visual description of gnolls, their armour and their typical lifespan>
2nd ed AD&D:
Gnolls are large, evil, hyena-like humanoids that roam about in loosely organized bands. While the body of a gnoll is shaped like that of a large human, the details are those of a hyena. They stand erect on two legs and have hands that can manipulate as well as those of any human. They have greenish gray skin, darker near the muzzle, with a short reddish gray to dull yellow mane. Gnolls have their own language and many also speak the tongues of flinds, trolls, orcs, or hobgoblins.
Combat: Gnolls seek to overwhelm their opponents by sheer numbers, using horde tactics. When under the direction of flinds or a strong leader, they can be made to hold rank and fight as a unit. While they do not often lay traps, they will ambush or attempt to attack from a flank or rear position. <There is then an account of the distribution of weapons among gnolls>
Habitat/Society: Gnolls are most often encountered underground or inside abandoned ruins. When above ground they operate primarily at night. Gnoll society is ruled by the strongest, using fear and intimidation. <This is followed by all the stuff about leaders, hangers-on, women and children, and captives as is found in the AD&D MM. On a quick scan it's all identical>
Gnolls will work together with orcs, hobgoblins, bugbears, ogres, and trolls. If encountered as a group, there must be a relative equality of strength. Otherwise the gnolls will kill and eat their partners (hunger comes before friendship or fear) or be killed and eaten by them. They dislike goblins, kobolds, giants, humans, demi-humans and any type of manual labor.
Ecology: Gnolls eat anything warm blooded, favoring intelligent creatures over animals because they scream better. They will completely hunt out an area before moving on. It may take several years for the game to return. <FInally there is the same information about lifespan as found in the MM entry>
Combat: Gnolls seek to overwhelm their opponents by sheer numbers, using horde tactics. When under the direction of flinds or a strong leader, they can be made to hold rank and fight as a unit. While they do not often lay traps, they will ambush or attempt to attack from a flank or rear position. <There is then an account of the distribution of weapons among gnolls>
Habitat/Society: Gnolls are most often encountered underground or inside abandoned ruins. When above ground they operate primarily at night. Gnoll society is ruled by the strongest, using fear and intimidation. <This is followed by all the stuff about leaders, hangers-on, women and children, and captives as is found in the AD&D MM. On a quick scan it's all identical>
Gnolls will work together with orcs, hobgoblins, bugbears, ogres, and trolls. If encountered as a group, there must be a relative equality of strength. Otherwise the gnolls will kill and eat their partners (hunger comes before friendship or fear) or be killed and eaten by them. They dislike goblins, kobolds, giants, humans, demi-humans and any type of manual labor.
Ecology: Gnolls eat anything warm blooded, favoring intelligent creatures over animals because they scream better. They will completely hunt out an area before moving on. It may take several years for the game to return. <FInally there is the same information about lifespan as found in the MM entry>
3E:
Gnolls are hyena-headed evil humanoids that wander in loose tribes <on warm plains, according to an Environment entry, which is followed by various groupings; and the text below then has some visual description>
A gnoll is a nocturnal carnivore, preferring intelligent creatures for food because they scream more. Gnolls tend to think with their stomachs, and any alliances they make (usually with bugbears, hobgoblins, ogres, orcs or trolls) often fall apart when the gnolls get hungry. They dislike giants and most other humanoids, and they disdain manual labor. . . .
Gnolls speak Gnoll . . . [and] like to attack when they have the advantage of numbers, using horde tactics and their physical strength to overwhelm and knock down their opponents. They show little discipline when fighting unless they have a strong leader; at such times, they can maintain ranks and fight as a unit. While they do not usually prepare traps, they do use ambushes and try to attack from a flanking position <this is followed by mechanical details about how gnolss use the Hide skill>
A tribe of gnolls is rules by its strongest member, who uses fear, intimidation, and strength to remain in power. If a chieftain is killed, the stronger members of the tribe fight to be the new chieftain. If these combats take to long or several combatants die, the tribe may break up into a number of bands that go their separate ways. Gnolls rever the phases of the moon, but most tribes have no true clerics.
A band or tribe includes as many non-combatant young as adults. Gnoll lairs are fortified surface encampments or underground complexes. Gnolls take prisoners for use as slaves <followed by statistical info that is the same as in AD&D> Slaves (usually humans, orcs, or hobgoblins) suffer a high attrition rate because of the gnolls' appetite.
Their special patron is the demon lord Yeenoghu, how looks like a gaunt gnoll. Most gnolls serve and revere Yeenoghu rather than worshipping a deity.
A gnoll is a nocturnal carnivore, preferring intelligent creatures for food because they scream more. Gnolls tend to think with their stomachs, and any alliances they make (usually with bugbears, hobgoblins, ogres, orcs or trolls) often fall apart when the gnolls get hungry. They dislike giants and most other humanoids, and they disdain manual labor. . . .
Gnolls speak Gnoll . . . [and] like to attack when they have the advantage of numbers, using horde tactics and their physical strength to overwhelm and knock down their opponents. They show little discipline when fighting unless they have a strong leader; at such times, they can maintain ranks and fight as a unit. While they do not usually prepare traps, they do use ambushes and try to attack from a flanking position <this is followed by mechanical details about how gnolss use the Hide skill>
A tribe of gnolls is rules by its strongest member, who uses fear, intimidation, and strength to remain in power. If a chieftain is killed, the stronger members of the tribe fight to be the new chieftain. If these combats take to long or several combatants die, the tribe may break up into a number of bands that go their separate ways. Gnolls rever the phases of the moon, but most tribes have no true clerics.
A band or tribe includes as many non-combatant young as adults. Gnoll lairs are fortified surface encampments or underground complexes. Gnolls take prisoners for use as slaves <followed by statistical info that is the same as in AD&D> Slaves (usually humans, orcs, or hobgoblins) suffer a high attrition rate because of the gnolls' appetite.
Their special patron is the demon lord Yeenoghu, how looks like a gaunt gnoll. Most gnolls serve and revere Yeenoghu rather than worshipping a deity.
4e (Monster Manual, not Essentials Monster Vault):
Gnolls are feral, demon-worshipping marauders that kill, pillage, and destroy. They attack communities along the borderlands without warning and slaughter without mercy, all in the name of the demon lord Yeenoghu. . . .
Gnolls are nomadic and rarely stay in one place for long. When gnolls attack and pillage a settlement, they leave nothing behind except razed buildings and gnawed corpses. Gnolls often decorate their armor and encampments with the bones of their victims. Impatient and unskilled artisans, they wear patchwork armor and wield weapons stolen from their victims.
Gnolls don’t bargain or parley, and they can’t be bribed or reasoned with. Gnolls are often encountered with hyenas, which they keep as pets and hunting animals. They also work with demons.
Gnolls detest physical labor and often use slaves to perform menial chores. The life of a slave in a gnoll camp is brutal and short. That said, slaves who show strength and savagery might be indoctrinated into the gnoll vanguard. Such creatures are usually broken in mind and spirit, having become as cruel and ruthless as their captors.
As the mortal instruments of the demon lord Yeenoghu, who is called the Beast of Butchery and Ruler of Ruin, gnolls constantly perform atrocities. When not scouring the land in Yeenoghu’s name, gnolls fight among themselves and participate in rituals that involve acts of depravity and self-mutilation. . . .
Gnolls raid and war in rapacious packs, their numbers supplemented by demons (especially evistros and barlguras), raving slaves, and beasts driven to madness and cruelty.
Powerful humanoids sometimes manage to take gnolls as slaves or even to raise gnoll pups as servants. Such gnolls serve their masters as fierce warriors.
<This is followed by some suggested groupings of gnolls with demons and hyenas, and a colour picture; the stat blocks tell us that gnolls have low-light vision and speak Common and Abyssal>
Gnolls are nomadic and rarely stay in one place for long. When gnolls attack and pillage a settlement, they leave nothing behind except razed buildings and gnawed corpses. Gnolls often decorate their armor and encampments with the bones of their victims. Impatient and unskilled artisans, they wear patchwork armor and wield weapons stolen from their victims.
Gnolls don’t bargain or parley, and they can’t be bribed or reasoned with. Gnolls are often encountered with hyenas, which they keep as pets and hunting animals. They also work with demons.
Gnolls detest physical labor and often use slaves to perform menial chores. The life of a slave in a gnoll camp is brutal and short. That said, slaves who show strength and savagery might be indoctrinated into the gnoll vanguard. Such creatures are usually broken in mind and spirit, having become as cruel and ruthless as their captors.
As the mortal instruments of the demon lord Yeenoghu, who is called the Beast of Butchery and Ruler of Ruin, gnolls constantly perform atrocities. When not scouring the land in Yeenoghu’s name, gnolls fight among themselves and participate in rituals that involve acts of depravity and self-mutilation. . . .
Gnolls raid and war in rapacious packs, their numbers supplemented by demons (especially evistros and barlguras), raving slaves, and beasts driven to madness and cruelty.
Powerful humanoids sometimes manage to take gnolls as slaves or even to raise gnoll pups as servants. Such gnolls serve their masters as fierce warriors.
<This is followed by some suggested groupings of gnolls with demons and hyenas, and a colour picture; the stat blocks tell us that gnolls have low-light vision and speak Common and Abyssal>
The 4e entry has less statistical demographics than the others (especially the AD&D ones). It has more cultural information (eg their scavenged weapons and armous, and the ritual of depravity and self-mutilation). I'm not trained in using formal metrics to measure quantities of information, but I don't think there is less information in that 4e lore than the lore from previous editions. And of course much of the lore is constant throughout - they are raiders, they take slaves, they ally with other evil humanoids, they don't like manual labour.
EDIT: In the past I think I've done goblins, aboleths (or maybe saw that done by someone else), drow and (I think) vampires. I didn't quite know what gnolls would turn up, but am completely unsurprised by the result.
This is one of the few things where we've of different minds with respect to 4e. I like the MM lore (see eg the gnoll lore above - nothing wrong with it, it's all good stuff). And as I'm about to elaborate on, I've used the stats too without issue. And it has some (in my view) interesting monsters, not all of which were picked up in the MV.
I quite like the MM stat blocks, and have used lots of them. Of course for paragon and epic I have to step up the damage appropriately and add +2 to hit to most brutes (which is also an issue with the DMG guidelines) - but that's fairly easy; it's special abilities that are trickier in 4e.
I know that eg the MM wraiths, black dragons and dracoliches have all come under fire for the way they kill the action economy, but I've used all three with no regrets.
On the three different sets of monster creation rules, I've never heard that before and have never looked closely enough to notice it (I have noticed that several stat blocks don't match the DMG guidelines). Can you elaborate a bit?
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I've got a pretty big 4e collection - no Draonomicons (not too into dragons), no Eberron, only a few modules - but all the Planar stuff, core volues, "powers", Open Grave, Demonomicon, etc.
My general view is it's hard to go wrong with 4e stuff, so go with what you've got but don't worry too much your money will be wasted if you add to your collection!
My general view is it's hard to go wrong with 4e stuff, so go with what you've got but don't worry too much your money will be wasted if you add to your collection!
JeffB
Legend
Frankly, I don't have much issue with the 4E MM when it comes to lore. I've been playing since 1977 and don't really need or want reams of lore about monsters I have been using for years and years. Just how much can be said about Goblins that is going to blow you away? The only time I like to see "extra" is when either
1) the Lore is there to tie the creature into a specific setting (for example the Jebli tribes of GH or see The Bestiary for Dragonlance 5th Age)
or
2) it's actually a different take on the creature from established norms (this usually the case in game other than D&D, for example Runequest or Earthdawn).
The Monster Vault, while excellent, I feel tips a bit too far in the opposite direction. There is so much word count given to lore, there are not nearly as many creatures in the book.
Also, I'd rather not have WOTC giving me their approved IP vanilla versions of anything at this point in my RPG life-The best campaign settings and monsters provide more questions than answers.
Swords & Wizardry way back in 2008 had the best treatment for my tastes when it comes to D&D monsters.
1) the Lore is there to tie the creature into a specific setting (for example the Jebli tribes of GH or see The Bestiary for Dragonlance 5th Age)
or
2) it's actually a different take on the creature from established norms (this usually the case in game other than D&D, for example Runequest or Earthdawn).
The Monster Vault, while excellent, I feel tips a bit too far in the opposite direction. There is so much word count given to lore, there are not nearly as many creatures in the book.
Also, I'd rather not have WOTC giving me their approved IP vanilla versions of anything at this point in my RPG life-The best campaign settings and monsters provide more questions than answers.
Swords & Wizardry way back in 2008 had the best treatment for my tastes when it comes to D&D monsters.
Swords & Wizardry 1st edition-now "core" said:
Absolutely! Reams and reams of overwrought prose.
Even looking at some of those gnoll entries over the years (see my post not far upthread), do I need the monster entry to tell me the strong bully the weak when there is already Chaotic Evil in the monster stablock, and the strong bully the weak is part of the definition of that alignment.
If I want inspiring prose I'll read something other than a gaming manual!
Don Durito
Hero
You know I think I'm possibly starting to come around to the new/old way of doing things.I think it makes way more sense that the person trying to affect another is always the one rolling. The current method feels arbitrary and just a way to make magic automatically better since weapon attacks can no longer target NADs like you could with some powers.
Also Impliment Mastery are cooler than plain School specialisation
At least in regard to spells. Perhaps it's the current pandemic as much as anything which is forcing gaming online. But it's much more easy on Roll20 for they player to just say what their spell does and throw it back on the GM to make a roll. Makes including homebrewed or 3rd party elements much easier.
Garthanos
Arcadian Knight
The martial and arcane power books are great... Heroes of Feywild is well one of the coolest.Hey let's get to brass tacks here.
I've got PHB1, 2, and 3, DMG 1 and 2, MM 1, 2 and 3; Divine Power and Psionic Power. (as well as the two FR and two DS books). I figure I probably want Martial Power 1 & 2, Arcane Power, and Primal Power.
I'm sure I can run a game with those products. BUT, many people have brought up other resources that I have not heard of or ignored during the 4e time period.
Maybe some folks can list their favorite official WotC D&D 4e resources, 3rd Party resources, and finally Online resources - and why those are useful to them?
Thanks in advance.
Here's a list of WotC D&D 4e books
List of Dungeons & Dragons rulebooks - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Garthanos
Arcadian Knight
You duck poorly and get caught easily? because damn it running with a polearm is nonsense but somebody has to do it?
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