D&D 4E Am I crazy? I've just gotten a hankering to play 4e again...

[dave2008]

I love how rituals work and what they contribute there were many spots of flexibility if you wanted them extant and while I did have ideas for improvement the short shrift in 5e seems another lost gem this time tossed for the sake of "5e has no assumed wealth".

I think you can marry the two. We play an extremely low magic version of 5e, so it could easily be (for us): "5e has no assumed wealth or magic." just move some of those spells to rituals (and scrolls) and be done with it IMO.

 

[MwaO]

I think you can marry the two. We play an extremely low magic version of 5e, so it could easily be (for us): "5e has no assumed wealth or magic." just move some of those spells to rituals (and scrolls) and be done with it IMO.

Next has no assumed wealth or magic level. 5e does have those, they're just not very clear about it and by the time it becomes clear that maybe things are off, you're already in levels that are unlikely to be played at all. This ambiguity causes a lot of easy to avoid problems on the other end though — see Adventurer's League where they hand out double the expected level of treasure because they didn't realize where the baseline was.

 

[dave2008]

Next has no assumed wealth or magic level. 5e does have those, they're just not very clear about it and by the time it becomes clear that maybe things are off, you're already in levels that are unlikely to be played at all. This ambiguity causes a lot of easy to avoid problems on the other end though — see Adventurer's League where they hand out double the expected level of treasure because they didn't realize where the baseline was.

I really have no idea what your saying. I have never played with an expected amount of wealth or magic in my D&D since the '80s.

 

[MwaO]

I really have no idea what your saying. I have never played with an expected amount of wealth or magic in my D&D since the '80s.

Right. Having played since the '70s, both 4e and 5e have expected amounts of wealth and magic baked into the system.

 

[Garthanos]

Next has no assumed wealth or magic level. 5e does have those, they're just not very clear about it

I admit I was assuming that "we have no assumed wealth but wink wink here is the cost for items X... My question is how do you make a generic adventure with wink wink assumptions hidden.

 

[MwaO]

I admit I was assuming that "we have no assumed wealth but wink wink here is the cost for items X... My question is how do you make a generic adventure with wink wink assumptions hidden.

Not very well? The assumptions in 5e are 1 good magic per 4 levels that changes the numbers and 1 good consumable per level. That created a lot of problems for Adventurer's League where 2.5 adventures to go up a level divided by 6 adventurers per mod = ~1 good magic item per 2 levels given opportunities to buy. And because the rules incentivized cheating, meant lots of players had 1 great magic item per 2 levels.

You can get away with no magic items in both 4e(if you use inherent bonuses) and 5e until about 10th, but after that, the holes start to appear if you're playing the same encounters you're supposed to be playing.

 

[dave2008]

Right. Having played since the '70s, both 4e and 5e have expected amounts of wealth and magic baked into the system.

That is just the opposite of what I said really. I played 4e for its full run and 5e for its full run and we have never used expected wealth or magic. Of course, I am always shocked to find out how rich and magically inclined other groups are! My point, 4e and 5e can work just fine without an expected amount of magic and wealth.

 

[dave2008]

... and 5e until about 10th, but after that, the holes start to appear if you're playing the same encounters you're supposed to be playing.

Not my experience. My group is now 15th level and none of their magic items give a bonus to hit. We don't run published adventures. However, 5e was explicitly designed to work without magic items and I argue it works best with as little magic as possible.

PS I am done talking about 5e in a 4e thread

 

[Garthanos]

Living Guild isn't a very good example of treasure under 4e rules for the following reasons:
Has approximately double the expected magic items found, possibly even quadruple if you use inherent bonuses.
It is possible to find items of your level+7 which can also potentially be choice of any
Doesn't use rarity, which shuts down ye old magic shoppes (at least not level appropriate items)

I hates the rarity rules they are slimy inconsistent goober schnitzel
The games default assumptions of wealth make many many items not really very purchasable. (access to cash for those ye olde magic shoppes is not super flowing)

That is just the opposite of what I said really. I played 4e for its full run and 5e for its full run and we have never used expected wealth or magic. Of course, I am always shocked to find out how rich and magically inclined other groups are! My point, 4e and 5e can work just fine without an expected amount of magic and wealth.

It has always been possible to ignore expected wealth patterns but they had impacts on play that might be very dramatic. In 1e ignoring money meant characters may lack money to go up levels.Ignoring magic items meant Martial types in particularly also end up very underfed mechanically BAF and a few other things.

 

[Garthanos]

4e having its assumptions be "in your face" is one of the things I very much like. It makes it easier to modify AND plan for in my opinion.