D&D 4E Am I crazy? I've just gotten a hankering to play 4e again...

[First Age]

There is! Behold, Monster Manual 3 on a business card.

They are meaningfully different, but it's not like it's a total ground-up rewrite. Accuracy penalties and bonuses were largely eliminated, damage was increased around 30% to 40%, hit points were often decreased (sometimes significantly), and in general effects were focused so they'd happen regardless of whether the monster succeeds rather than solely if it does (so that it didn't matter if any given monster only lasted 2 rounds, it'd still get SOME effect off and shift the flow of battle.)

All sorted now and with Monster Vault and the guidance I can gauge the numbers. Useful to get this clear before I move into actual play. Exciting.

Cheers.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Thanks, but it's no that. It is far more tactical than what I want from my D&D. I already play war-games. I'm looking for something else when I play rpgs.

I always get a chuckle at this sentiment, because I hate war games but love 4e.

Ever try 4e with the Essentials style classes?

 

[pemerton]

Is there somewhere that gives the workings for MM3 such that they can be applied to 1 & 2? Are they that diffierent?

They're not super-different, especially at Heroic tier.

In MM3 elites tend to have slightly lower defences, and solos also tend to have lower hit points. Standards aren't different in either respect. In MM3 brutes also have +2 to hit, which they need especially at Paragon and Epic tier (where PC defences start to spread more widely as the variety of build elements and buffs grows).

MM3 works on a damage average of Level + 8, whereas MM1 and MM2 work on a damage average of 8 + half level. This doesn't matter very much in Heroic tier but starts to show up in higher tiers. If you have mechanically competent players and want to have combats apply genuine pressure, I strongly suggest using the MM3 numbers, and upgrading MM1 and MM2 entries appropriately.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

All sorted now and with Monster Vault and the guidance I can gauge the numbers. Useful to get this clear before I move into actual play. Exciting.

Cheers.

My pleasure. I really do love 4e, it's not a perfect system but it got so many things in the ballpark of right. Helping players and DMs get on their feet with it is thus a personal mission.

As an aside, as I said earlier for others, if you'd like advice on how to expand the approach to and use of Skill Challenges, just say the word. I fear they really flop if played precisely as written, but if you just go a little bit further than the RAW (and ignore the terrible examples provided) you really can make them feel great to play. Possibly the second greatest shame about what 5e abandoned from 4e (besides the balance) is that it completely jettisoned the Skill Challenge rules rather than making the comparatively tiny adjustments needed to turn them into a new staple of the D&D milieu.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

The trick to 4e combat being fast is to be well organized and KEEP IT MOVING. The problem that arises is that if things get slow because ee dither and dally and try to look up everything they can do as they play, then its 20 minutes before your next turn, by which time you're off in the kitchen chowing on chips and dip instead of playing your PC, or fallen asleep or whatever.

Fights also need to be DYNAMIC. This is HUGELY important. Rooms full of monsters DO NOT WORK AT ALL in 4e!!!! A 4e fight is something like the party and some goblins, each in a mine cart on parallel tracks flying down the shaft while they trade blows and one side has to jump to the other cart or plunge off into a 500' deep shaft on round 6. THAT is a 4e fight. Some crappy steel cage death match in a 20x20 room is NOT.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

The trick to 4e combat being fast is to be well organized and KEEP IT MOVING. The problem that arises is that if things get slow because ee dither and dally and try to look up everything they can do as they play, then its 20 minutes before your next turn, by which time you're off in the kitchen chowing on chips and dip instead of playing your PC, or fallen asleep or whatever.

Fights also need to be DYNAMIC. This is HUGELY important. Rooms full of monsters DO NOT WORK AT ALL in 4e!!!! A 4e fight is something like the party and some goblins, each in a mine cart on parallel tracks flying down the shaft while they trade blows and one side has to jump to the other cart or plunge off into a 500' deep shaft on round 6. THAT is a 4e fight. Some crappy steel cage death match in a 20x20 room is NOT.

Agreed.

For players (and also DMs):

• Be organized.
• Stay focused.
• Prepare BEFORE you're up.
• Know your abilities.*
• Retreat if things go bad!

For DMs:

• Be dynamic.
• Make a splash.
• Avoid "throwaway" fights.
• Use terrain/features/environment.
• DO retreat/surrender lost causes!

*If memorizing is a problem for a player, index cards with simple summaries are useful here.

 

[Garthanos]

"upcasting" and more slots was one attempt. (Note that upcasting sort of sucks, in both baseline 5e and in this system, unless you find a way to make a lot of taps with your spell for few actions.)

I like the flavor of upcasting and players that I have seen use it like the flexibility I was wondering if we could bring something like it to 4e

 

[Garthanos]

They're not super-different, especially at Heroic tier.

In MM3 elites tend to have slightly lower defences, and solos also tend to have lower hit points. Standards aren't different in either respect. In MM3 brutes also have +2 to hit, which they need especially at Paragon and Epic tier (where PC defences start to spread more widely as the variety of build elements and buffs grows).

MM3 works on a damage average of Level + 8, whereas MM1 and MM2 work on a damage average of 8 + half level. This doesn't matter very much in Heroic tier but starts to show up in higher tiers. If you have mechanically competent players and want to have combats apply genuine pressure, I strongly suggest using the MM3 numbers, and upgrading MM1 and MM2 entries appropriately.

I like that being mentioned if your players are more casual in terms of mechanic optimizations then its less significant.

 

[NotAYakk]

I like the flavor of upcasting and players that I have seen use it like the flexibility I was wondering if we could bring something like it to 4e

There was upcasting in powers by slot in the later half of 4e. At the start they'd reprint a power with a new name, some upgrades, and do it 3 power slot levels later.

This had a few problems.

First, it was pointless (or less pointful) words.

Secind, it was high level words. And high level is less important than low.

Third, it let you double dip. CAGI was such a good power, having it and an upgrade both was often worth it.

Forth, it made the game harder in uninteresting ways. You'd have to know the upper level clones of lower level powers.

Later, powers did X, then upgraded at specific levels (or if taken as a higher level power).

 

[Garthanos]

Forth, it made the game harder in uninteresting ways. You'd have to know the upper level clones of lower level powers.

Yes knowing what to upgrade to feel like you only empowered what you have is annoying

Third, it let you double dip. CAGI was such a good power, having it and an upgrade both was often worth it.

it would be nice to have that one so you could upgrade its range, the movie characters doing come and get it are often better ranged