D&D 5E Am I missing something about Conjure Animal

[AdmundfortGeographer]

The discussion and comments have been very helpful in giving me ideas about what might have been going on and options I can work in as well as realizing I'm not completely off and that the spell is pretty much a strong spell all around.

I don't want to neutralize character awesomeness. We'll have a conversation about what is acceptable to tune the spell so it can be great in ways the rest of the table doesn't resent. We may not change anything except being disciplined at remembering its Concentration. But I'm thinking we may try limiting the Conjure to just one CR 2 or two CR 1, removing the four CR 1/2 and eight CR 1/4 for a while as a test.


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[Henry]

I've been playing 5e for about the last two years and have yet to see any of the summon spells cast at our table. I'm playing a Moon Duid now, so I guess I'll get to see what all the fuss is about at level 5. However I won't be casting for more than 4 critters at a time, because I don't want a bunch of ineffective ankle-biters on the battlefield, anyway.

 

[The Human Target]

I'm left wondering if 4E style summons, where you had an action to sustain them, would have been easier to balance.


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I mean, they clearly were.

 

[Pickles III]

The discussion and comments have been very helpful in giving me ideas about what might have been going on and options I can work in as well as realizing I'm not completely off and that the spell is pretty much a strong spell all around.

I don't want to neutralize character awesomeness. We'll have a conversation about what is acceptable to tune the spell so it can be great in ways the rest of the table doesn't resent. We may not change anything except being disciplined at remembering its Concentration. But I'm thinking we may try limiting the Conjure to just one CR 2 or two CR 1, removing the four CR 1/2 and eight CR 1/4 for a while as a test.


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This is my patch too, though in fact it just ended my campaign (with a couple of other issues).

Concentration was dealt with by the summoner druid taking warcaster feat & then hiding at the back or just round a corner in perfect safety.

As a DM I found it ridiculously broken with the 8 CR1/4s though I was not using the note that says I get to determine the monsters summoned which, on top of anything else, is more tedious work than I care for.

Part of the issue was having to run another mass of critters & part of it was their stupid power level. This is largely a function of the CR system being broken & low CR creatures being worth more bang for their buck than higher CRs. This is why there is a multiplier for using masses of creatures in the encounter builder after all.

(In general - AOEs can reverse that but if I was having to metagame my monsters to ensure enough AOEs it's a bad sign)

Stupid spell lasts for an hour too ....

 

[Warmaster Horus]

Yeah, this is something we call "Wall of Elk". DMs deal with it by killing the creatures, dispelling them or breaking caster concentration. If you're having issues with it then it's time to raise your encounter CRs.

 

[MechaTarrasque]

Don't forget if the conjured critters' stat blocks don't say their attacks are magical for purposes of overcoming resistances and immunities, then they don't overcome resistances and/or immunities even though they were conjured by magic. That might not be so useful for PotA, but the odd werewolf or demon becomes a more significant challenge to a party that depends on this tactic.

As far as I recall the only conjurable monsters have attacks that count as magical for purposes of overcoming are the celestials for conjure celestials and the elemental myrmidons for conjure elemental (need to cast at level 7 or above).

 

[dco]

With the current rules my advice is to not roll damage, use the average from the stats and roll all attacks for each enemy at the same time. The same when the enemies attack the creatures.
The spell is strong but a fighter for example can use the action surge for 4 attacks, with battlemaster maneuvers and TWF or a feat it could be 6 attacks. Players are strong at lvl 5.

 

[cmad1977]

As far as running them at the table... I'd control them as DM. Probably wouldn't even roll to hit for each summon. I'd have some work to provide advantage for the others (cutting down to hit rolls), use average damage(cutting down damage rolls) and maybe just assume like 3/4 or half the summons hit with their attacks(not roll at all).


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[schnee]

I'm trying to come up with ways to make it work too.

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Idea: Randomly applied damage

For combat, I'm going off of the idea of assuming over time the rolls you get will average out. So, if the wolves need to roll 16+ to hit their target, then 25% of them will hit each round. So then roll the d8 to see which ones hit, and apply the average damage as per the MM.

The complexity comes in as the wolves die, so you'd really need one big-ass table that is indexed by the number required to hit on one axis (AC - Proficiency Bonus), and the number of summoned creatures on the other.

Oh, you have mixed armor classes in the targets the summoned animals are attacking? Those AC's changed during the battle due to Faerie Fire? Some summoned monsters create Advantage? I...bugger. It falls apart.

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The more I think about it, the more it comes down to the complexity in the system actually forcing a complete re-do like the 'Wall of Elk' or 'Wolfball' spell ideas. But, literal animals have a lot more interesting uses... "Chase down the man in blue, knock him prone, and then keep him down on the ground until we catch up!" or "Run to that open hallway, and attack anyone who tries to enter or leave!" or using them to help find someone hiding via smell, or stuff like that. I think those are what make the spells unique.

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So, for combat, if the DM and Druid player are fast and have good communication, it's not really that bad.

Druid - "Okay, 3 wolves on the Orc #1: (rolls two dice each time, says only the highest number) 14, 17, 4"
DM - "Two hits"
Druid - "14 damage. 2 wolves on Orc #2: 20, 13"
DM - "One hit"
Druid - "14 damage..."

We used to have all sorts of hirelings, retainers, and fanatical followers in AD&D, and when we had them we had an unspoken agreement: they didn't do complicated things, they followed basic orders only. The players got tactically weird. When we did that, they went quickly, and it all went well.

 

[epithet]

Why not just use a swarm? It's not hard to make a swarm out of pretty much anything.