An idea for changing some conditions

[ravenheart]

I had an idea in another thread, thought I'd take it up here as its a sort of a house rule.

Basically, I want to change the naming and effects of some conditions so that they are more easily concievable from a laymans point of view, and make it evenly consistent and mechanically sound. I'm aiming for a clarification of sorts, and have tried concocting a house rule -three parts mechanics and one part cinematic "realism".

My biggest gripe is the Unconscious and Helpless conditions, although I do touch on a few others. My arguments are the following:

1) The Unconscious condition is generally applied for two different reasons; a character is either asleep/comatose (be it by natural, magical or any other means) or dying (generally by just having been dropped to or below 0 hp). This, in my opinion, are two strictly separate events (the second being far more traumatic), and should therefore be treated as different conditions.

2) Conditions relying on other conditions are not desireable, and should be avoided if possible (see what they did to Dominated and Restrained?). Condition dependencies are abusable, although some dependencies are justified (ex. falling Prone when becoming Unconscious).

3) A condition should justify its existence (I'm looking at you Helpless!). If it isn't usable on its own or hard to grasp as a solitary concept it shouldn't be a condition.

4) Similarly, a condition that only exists for symmetrical reasons but lacks the mechanical oomph to make it worthwhile (Deafened) should also be reassessed.

Finally, I have a design goal to add to this:

All conditions should be different enough to warrant their own existence, but still general enough so that they can be applied to a wider range of circumstances.

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I've been working on solutions to further my goal, and come up with the following (as stated in the other thread, with some added ideas):

1) Change all occurences of Helpess into "grants combat advantage, can be subjected to a coup de grace". Change Coup de Grace to refer to the Unconscious or Incapacitated (see below) condition instead of a Helpless target.

2) Add the following condition:

Incapacitated - While a creature is incapacitated, it grants combat advantage, it only take a minor action and one free action per turn, and it takes a -5 penalty to all defenses. It also can’t flank, can't use attack powers and can be the subject of a coup de grace. When a creature is subjected to this condition, it falls prone, if possible.

3) Change the Dying condition to the following:

Dying -A dying creature is incapacitated and must make death saving throws. Whenever a creature fails a death saving throw they become unconscious until the end of their next turn. This condition ends immediately on the creature when it regains hit points.

Change all other occurences of Unconscious in relation to dying to Incapacitated.
4) Change the Unconscious condition to the following:

Unconscious -While a creature is unconscious, it is incapacitated, it can’t take actions, and it takes a -5 penalty to all defenses. It also unaware of its surroundings.

5) Add "and takes a -2 penalty to attack rolls" to the Deafened condition (trauma to the ear could cause coordination issues and pain).

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What I hope to achieve with this idea is to break some middle ground between dying, being unconscious and merely being incapacitated (but aware of ones surroundings). Drifting in and out of consciousness (falling unconscious on failed death saves) just screams dramatic tension to me, which fits nicely with the games cinematic approach to combat. One idea I had was to allow free actions while being incapacitated, but that might be abusable.

What I'm really pleased with is getting rid of helpless and without much trouble. The boost to deafened was well deserved in my opinion, as it is one of the least used conditions - it needs some love. Could be changed to granting combat advantage.

What do you guys think? Needless tinkering or am I on to something?

EDIT: Added some of my tweaks mentioned in my second post.
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[OnlineDM]

I've never had a problem with Helpless, honestly, so I wouldn't bother with these changes in my game. But I think your idea about having Deafened do something other than -10 to Perception is interesting. I think "grants combat advantage" makes more sense than "-2 to attack," to reflect the fact that the character couldn't hear the whoosh of an oncoming sword or the footfalls of an enemy coming up behind them.

 

[ravenheart]

I've never had a problem with Helpless, honestly, so I wouldn't bother with these changes in my game. But I think your idea about having Deafened do something other than -10 to Perception is interesting. I think "grants combat advantage" makes more sense than "-2 to attack," to reflect the fact that the character couldn't hear the whoosh of an oncoming sword or the footfalls of an enemy coming up behind them.

The problem I see with Helpless is that I can picture every other condition in a multitude of ways (ex. Blinded could be blood in your eyes, a flash of light, magical blindfold etc.) and can easily come up with practical and theoretical uses of them in conjunction with powers, feats, items, monsters etc.

But I can't do this with Helpless. It's a condition that only exists for a single purpose, to act as an indicator of when a coup de grace is available. I guess you could say that any untrained peasants or a litter of kittens are Helpless against your greataxe or fireball, but what's the point in that? We already have minions or DM fiat for that (and psychiatrist if you obsess about killing kittens, you evildoer!).

The few cases (notably powers) where this condition could be viably used on its own, it can easily be translated to "the target grants combat advantage and can be the subject of a coup de grace", as is the case when an effect is beyond the use of regular conditions. As a separate condition, it is simply redundant.

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The real core of these changes are two-fold: mechanical and cinematic.

Mechanically it means you are aware of your surroundings when you're dropped to 0 hp (so for instance, effects that require you to see or hear an ally would work) and that you can both be incapacitated and unconscious (giving you a whooping -10 to defenses).

As I said i thought about allowing free actions while incapacitated, but now I'm willing to extend that to a minor action (but no attacks etc.), and a limit on free actions (1/turn). The idea is to not to make downed characters harder to kill, but rather keep them in the fight (by keeping them as viable targets). Nothings more frustrating than rolling death saves round after round.

The weird thing is that you could possibly be unconscious without being incapacitated, which is rather hard to imagine. So there is still an implied dependency there, so I might aswell make it a de facto dependency (changing Unconscious to refer to Incapacitated). So I give you that...

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Cinematically it adds drama to combat, making it more dangerous and engages all players at all times. A downed player is not useless, but he or she isn't automatically ignored either. With a minor action, he or she could possibly pull out a potion, try to disable a trap or flick a ditant switch with Mage Hand.

Teamwork becomes even more crucial to the game, and sound tactics are required lest you are to burn out on healing surges. It incorporates the fighting spirit of the characters in a D&D campaign, and IMHO that's reason enough for warranting this change.
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As for my proposed boost to the Deafened condition, glad you liked it!

I'm a bit partial to the -2 attack penalty myself, since it makes it more useful in concert with other conditions that grant combat advantage (ex. Blinded). But I can see it granting combat advantage as well.

One option is to really explore design space and come up with an all new approach to this condition:
- it could be a mutable condition that randomly imposes either an attack penalty or combat advantage (choosen on acquisition, 1-3 -2 atk, 4-6 CA)
-it becomes a conscious round-by-round choice of the player (do I want a attack penalty, or do I want to grant combat advantage?). That only works for (save ends) conditions and require some unnecessary tracking though...
- or it could be action dependant (If you are damaged by an attack while deafened, you take a -2 penalty to attack rolls until the end of your next turn. If you move more than 2 squares on your turn while deafened, you grant combat advantage until the start of your next turn).

On the other hand, that might be taking it to the extreme... but I like taking things to the extreme!

 

[the Jester]

I don't have any issues with conditions as they are, so I wouldn't try to fix them myself.

That said, I like your incapacitated condition, but I wouldn't use it when pcs are dying. Any leader could heal himself, if the character has a potion they are likely to be able to heal themself- too easy.

But then, I'm a mean dm.

 

[ravenheart]

I don't have any issues with conditions as they are, so I wouldn't try to fix them myself.

To each one own. I'm actually not sure if and when I would implement these changes myself since don't get around to play much often. But I like tinkerin' and if someone else can benefit from it, be my guest! It might even save me some time working out kinks before I try it out myself if I get feedback. None the less, I appreciate your comments.

That said, I like your incapacitated condition, but I wouldn't use it when pcs are dying. Any leader could heal himself, if the character has a potion they are likely to be able to heal themself- too easy.

But then, I'm a mean dm.

Exactly. But they are still treated as targets, even if they are incapacitated. The orc will go for the kill, the bear will keep on mauling, the mind flayer will keep on flaying and the beholder will keep on...eh..beholding?

Of course, depending on tactics, creatures might want to go after other PCs instead of finishing off the dying one. That is why I'd allow a minor action, so that the PCs have a chance of getting up before perishing all together.

On the other hand, that might be too brutal, considering the coup de grace factor. Maybe if I dropped the defense penalty from incapacitated? Or alleviated the circumstances of death? This might be a bit off tangent, but let's see what I can come up with.

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What if, in this more brutal scenario ,instead of death you recieve a lethal wound when dropping below negative bloodied or failing three death saves? I could see something similar to the disease track being used here (a Death Track?), with say an initial -1 penalty to ability, attack and skill checks, then worsening with loss of a healing surge, and eventually ending in a more permanent death. The wound could be healed by Cure Disease, and death could be reversed with Raise Dead, of course.

(I'm tempted to make separate Death Tracks for being brought to negative bloodied compared to failing three death saves, which usually means I should stick with a simpler more coherent solution )

I'm not looking for a death spiral here so I need some way to counter that. Removing the "death penalty" from Raise Dead is a start, but I'd rather see it changed into a bonus (as you've come back, stronger and more determined).

Maybe feats only available to characters that have died and come back, ex. one that give you a bonus to saving throws while dying (Desperate Resolve), or gives you increased damage against bloodied foes after being dropped below 0 hit points (Death Spiral ) or even temp HP the first time you drop below 0 hit points in an encounter (Defiant Soul)? Same could be said for powers, rituals - you name it.

Some ideas. Thoughts?

EDIT: To clarify, a PC reaching negative bloodied or failing three death saves would be knocked unconscious until the end of the encounter. To distinguish a lethal wound from diseases and really emphasize the risk it bears, one could require an Endurance/Heal check after every encounter or hour of in-game time - failure would inflict a cumulative -2 penalty to the next recovery check at the end of an extended rest (or Cure Disease attempt). To further avoid a mid-combat death spiral, I'd implement a boost in power for the PCs when one of them suffers a lethal wound, maybe a +1 bonus to attacks and half-level to all damage rolls?

 

[the Jester]

You call this a more brutal scenario, but I keep seeing it as making it easier on the pcs.

...but they are still treated as targets, even if they are incapacitated.

So are unconscious and dying pcs, though. I don't see this as an added danger; if the orc would have coup de graced the unconscious guy, he still will do the same, while if he'd move onto the next active danger, he'll still do the same as well.

The biggest difference I imagine would be in those really close fights where it comes down to the wire, where 'incapacitated' pcs will occasionally have a minor action attack option to use that they otherwise wouldn't. While I see the dramatic appeal in this, I still don't like it- especially because this is a very one-sided change that favors the pcs against the monsters. 4e is pro-pc enough imho.

What if, in this more brutal scenario ,instead of death you recieve a lethal wound when dropping below negative bloodied or failing three death saves? I could see something similar to the disease track being used here (a Death Track?), with say an initial -1 penalty to ability, attack and skill checks, then worsening with loss of a healing surge, and eventually ending in a more permanent death. The wound could be healed by Cure Disease, and death could be reversed with Raise Dead, of course.

Easier still. Not to my taste, but absolutely reasonable for certain playstyles.

Maybe feats only available to characters that have died and come back, ex. one that give you a bonus to saving throws while dying (Desperate Resolve), or gives you increased damage against bloodied foes after being dropped below 0 hit points (Death Spiral ) or even temp HP the first time you drop below 0 hit points in an encounter (Defiant Soul)? Same could be said for powers, rituals - you name it.

Now THIS I really like, although I think it might work better in 3.x, actually, with all the different subsets of feat types available. No reason it wouldn't work in 4e too, though.

It really sounds to me like you have a bunch of good ideas, just our playstyle preferences are vastly different.

 

[ravenheart]

You call this a more brutal scenario, but I keep seeing it as making it easier on the pcs.

Seeing as this has grown from its humble beginnings, I guess I have an additional, unstated design goal here - making death mean something more than ultimate action denial. How I can reach this goal is what I'm trying to figure out.

There is that unwritten rule of the DM, isn't there? Where you don't coup de grace the unconscious player when you have the chance - why? Its even suggested that you refrain from such action - but the rules are there so what's stopping you? Is it because its "unfair" somehow? But why would some rules be less fair than others? Some monsters even depend on a coup de grace! Your players can do it, no question about it, but how often does that really come up?

No, its because killing a character is the worst thing you can do to your players. You end up with a player at your table without anything to do. And even if its only temporary, you've removed him/her from the story and role-playing, maybe even social aspect of the game. And this affects everything, including the other players - suddenly they are one man down, and have to go through significant trouble in bringing him back.

Sure this could be solved by the player playing a companion character until their PC is raised or they make a new one, or the party can embark on a heroic quest or storyline to retrieve their fallen comrades soul from the underworld. But that should ideally be the exception, not the rule, right?

So are unconscious and dying pcs, though. I don't see this as an added danger; if the orc would have coup de graced the unconscious guy, he still will do the same, while if he'd move onto the next active danger, he'll still do the same as well.

The biggest difference I imagine would be in those really close fights where it comes down to the wire, where 'incapacitated' pcs will occasionally have a minor action attack option to use that they otherwise wouldn't. While I see the dramatic appeal in this, I still don't like it- especially because this is a very one-sided change that favors the pcs against the monsters. 4e is pro-pc enough imho.

Well I guess they would be, especially in regards to area and close attacks, and of course concerning automatic and ongoing damage. Maybe treating them as active threats is more descriptive of what I'm trying to convey?

As incapacitated PCs are still in the fight (so to speak), the more reason for the orc to finish them off (with a coup de grace) before they crawl up and stab him in the back etc. And it won't be "unfair" if they don't really die, as per my idea.

And note that I specifically called out that you "can't use attack powers" while incapacitated. Not sure if that is sufficiently phrased to consider all attack actions, but on the other hand maybe it shouldn't be? Sustaining powers for instance, is it an attack action? Or would that be more case by case?

Easier still. Not to my taste, but absolutely reasonable for certain playstyles.

Not too easy as you might suffer wounds more often than you would otherwise die (due to being coup de graced, for instance). And as I clarified in my edit, they would still be out of that particular fight.

If you want to ramp up the challenge, bring in more or higher level critters if you like. The risk isn't as daunting with immediate death out of the picture. And this makes capturing the party by "killing" them rules-friendly.

Now THIS I really like, although I think it might work better in 3.x, actually, with all the different subsets of feat types available. No reason it wouldn't work in 4e too, though.

Yeah, I really wanted to reward players (and the group for resurrecting their fellow) for sticking with their characters. My inital though was to give these feats out for free when you return to life, but that might have been over the top. I could even see this as some form of feat-chain (like bloodline/heritage feats), where you get perks for every feat and powers you can swap out.

It really sounds to me like you have a bunch of good ideas, just our playstyle preferences are vastly different.

That, or maybe just me being unclear. I tend to get misunderstood from time to time, and even more so when I communicate in English as it isn't my native tongue! Speaking of language, I just noticed I've been writing coup de grace with a "the" instead of a "de" in this entire thread - d'oh! Edit mode initiated...

One final thought: What if a player had the choice of either dying OR receiving a wound, particularly with the epic destiny features in mind?

 

[ren1999]

I think Dazed and Stunned should be the same condition.

http://kira3696.tripod.com/CombatTracker.rar

http://kira3696.tripod.com/magespells.htm
Just starting on this idea for a Classic Fighter/Magic-User

 

[TarionzCousin]

Our illustrious leader, Morrus, wrote up 17 new conditions that are definitely worth checking out. Cost: $1.00 at rpgnow.com or free in the subscribers' section at ENWorld (if you're a Community Supporter).