An idea to make the game feel lighter

[SilverfireSage]

The list of all skills is still much longer than the list of your proficient skills.

The problem with your example is that you don't need to know your wisdom save bonus, because a wisdom save in 5e is just a wisdom check. If you're proficient, it's a wisdom check plus your general proficiency bonus - which you don't need to even look up each time.

I have to see this work in practice, but ideally I would like to have a character sheet made of a single page, but not a cluttered one. It will be hard for spellcasters after a certain level, so for them maybe a second sheet for spells.

You are still thinking about "hunting" for information in a character sheet, I am trying to think if I can play the game with a character sheet so light that there is no hunting needed.

I guess I can see someone making a minimalist character sheet and doing it that way. (BTW, the actual character sheet is actually only one page long. There's a back and a second sheet, but they're used for background and spells respectively.) However, I think for most people, having to do that math in their head, regardless of how easy the actual math is, would be more difficult than having it done beforehand in front of them.

 

[delericho]

Even if the calculation is simple, if I have to think about it every single time I roll dice, then the game certainly isn't going to feel lighter.

This. I appreciate what the OP is trying to do, but it's not for me.

 

[Umbran]

The list of all skills is still much longer than the list of your proficient skills.

The problem with your example is that you don't need to know your wisdom save bonus, because a wisdom save in 5e is just a wisdom check. If you're proficient, it's a wisdom check plus your general proficiency bonus - which you don't need to even look up each time.

But looking up the value is not the only reason to have the skills listed on the sheet.

The things listed on the character sheet - skills, weapon stats, list of spells and powers, and so on - taken collectively give you a first approximation of what your character can attempt to do. If you leave things off the sheet, players will tend to forget those things are options. This is even more important in 5e, in that bounded accuracy means that non-proficient characters may well still have a chance.

Basically, in cutting down the sheet, you risk creating an "out of sight, out of mind" state in the players. Maybe it'll feel lighter, but it may also feel more *restricting*, as they will tend to feel their list of options is constrained.

 

[Sadrik]

Basically, in cutting down the sheet, you risk creating an "out of sight, out of mind" state in the players. Maybe it'll feel lighter, but it may also feel more *restricting*, as they will tend to feel their list of options is constrained.

I kind of agree with this. I think it may be important to at minimum list the other skills to show what is possible for the character to try and accomplish. For old hands at the game this will not be needed but sometimes players want to stare at their sheet to get an idea of what they want to do in any given moment. Listing the skills and perhaps checking the 4 or 5 they have might be good. The other thing is tools you have to list those as well. I am torn as to if they should be listed completely though or they should be a write in. You want to give the players the options to try new things and if it is out of sight, it very well likely is out of mind too.

That said I can appreciate for PBP and for DMs stats using this format would be preferred. Huge stats not friendly in those formats.

Proficiency bonus +3

18 STR +4, Save*, Athletics
18 DEX +4, Save, Acrobatics, Sleight of Hand, Stealth
18 CON +4, Save
18 INT +4, Save*, Arcana*, History*, Investigation*, Nature, Religion
18 WIS +4, Save, Animal Handling, Insight, Medicine, Perception* (17), Survival
18 CHA +4, Save, Deception, Intimidation, Performance, Persuasion*

Tools: long list with asterisks or not...

List all skills and place a check on the ones you apply your Proficiency Bonus to. This would be doable for me.

 

[dogoftheunderworld]

But looking up the value is not the only reason to have the skills listed on the sheet. <SNIP>
Basically, in cutting down the sheet, you risk creating an "out of sight, out of mind" state in the players. Maybe it'll feel lighter, but it may also feel more *restricting*, as they will tend to feel their list of options is constrained.

Yes & no. Oddly, As a seasoned player, I agree -- I am constantly looking over my sheet to see what I d can do. (Restricting myself.)

But, when I DM for my son's teenage friends - they always want to do *something*, and I have to reconcile that attempt within the skills/rules. There imagination is unbounded by the rules, letting them explore more deeply the possibilities I would have given them.

That being said -- I am neither for nor against this "lighter char sheet" idea -- but it may appeal to certain play styles

*Note: We currently play Pathfinder, and I am not up on all the 5ed rules

 

[Roger]

I'll just scootch into this thread before it gets moved.

For a more radical lightening, one might consider getting out of skill proficiency and skipping straight to ability proficiency.

So, for example, ye olde barbarian is now proficient in Strength and Constitution. Just add the proficiency right to their ability scores. I think this allows you to toss out saving throw proficiencies too. I'll leave some weird edge cases like rogue double-proficiency in thieves' tools as an exercise for the reader.

I'm not sure I'd call this better, per se, but I think it would be lighter.

 

[evilbob]

The things listed on the character sheet - skills, weapon stats, list of spells and powers, and so on - taken collectively give you a first approximation of what your character can attempt to do. If you leave things off the sheet, players will tend to forget those things are options.

I believe the exact opposite of this. I think by listing all the things your character can do on your sheet you are severely limiting what your players think about their characters being able to do. There is no "swing from chandelier" skill on my sheet, so I tend to forget I could even do that (yes, yes your DM can make a call about which skill to use but if all you see on your sheet is "acrobatics" it actually limits your thinking). It's much better to leave all skills OFF your sheet so that you aren't constrained by a simple list. When people look to their sheet to figure out what their characters can do, they are already limiting themselves.

I agree with the OP and the very first thing I did was to create a version of the PHB character sheet that changed only two things: I blanked out the "skills" list (made it a bunch of lines like "features and traits") so that people could write in their proficiencies without seeing a limiting list of "this is all you can do" (and also changed the box label to "proficiencies" instead of "skills"), and I changed the word "hit dice" to "healing surge" because I think calling your healing surges "hit dice" is dumb and needlessly confusing.

I also plan to avoid pre-calculating skills on anyone's sheet because I believe strongly in the optional rule that skills shouldn't be tied to a single ability score. Intimidate can be a Str check, Stealth can be a Cha check - and I don't want players to feel limited in their thinking about how they can use their skills.

 

[Tormyr]

I think that looking at your character sheet as what your character can do is too limiting. Your character can try to do anything. Whether they will have a reasonable chance of success is another matter.

For some people at my table, the lighter character sheet would not work. What I like about the standard character sheet is that it has 1 number to add to any check save or attack roll. One player at my table needs it this way. Otherwise, they are looking all over their character sheet for what numbers to add up, and the other players are reminding him what numbers he needs to add up.

 

[volanin]

That said I can appreciate for PBP and for DMs stats using this format would be preferred. Huge stats not friendly in those formats.

Proficiency bonus +3

18 STR +4, Save*, Athletics
18 DEX +4, Save, Acrobatics, Sleight of Hand, Stealth
18 CON +4, Save
18 INT +4, Save*, Arcana*, History*, Investigation*, Nature, Religion
18 WIS +4, Save, Animal Handling, Insight, Medicine, Perception* (17), Survival
18 CHA +4, Save, Deception, Intimidation, Performance, Persuasion*

Tools: long list with asterisks or not...

I'd prefer to go with the OP style and simply do something like this:

Proficiency bonus +3

18 STR +4, Save
18 DEX +4
18 CON +4
18 INT +4, Save, Arcana, History, Investigation
18 WIS +4, Perception (17)
18 CHA +4, Persuasion

Very light, and you know everything you character is proficient at in a simple glance!
Maybe I'll adapt my character sheets to something like this.

 

[Afrodyte]

Yes, this is what I mean! You get a very compact character sheet that isn't intimidating and takes a few minutes to fill.

You could also remove the last few attack bonuses: notice that they are all either +4 or +5, depending on whether they use Dex or Str. If you substitute +4 with a simple "Dex" label and +5 with "Str", you don't have to update them when your proficiency bonus increases.

As I mentioned in the other thread about monsters, this idea reveals that something that used to be a huge pain in 3e as ability score damage, is quite a lot easier to handle now: you update only that score and its modifier, and nothing else in your character sheet.

I could, but I'd probably forget if a weapon did 1d6 or 1d8 base damage, and that would mean I'd have to look it up, which means cracking open the book, which takes up time I'd rather spend on roleplaying.

But, as always, YMMV.