An Indecent Proposal

[Lord Zardoz]

The only reason that math in D&D (4th Edition or 3rd Edition) ever gets cumbersome is not because of the numbers involved, but because of the quantity of variables. 3rd edition was really bad because there were so many possible situational modifiers from buff spells, not all of which would apply at all times, and you had to keep track of spell / effect durations.

The 4th Edition system is easier. Book keeping is either end of next turn, until end of encounter, or until save ends. There are still some situational modifiers, but not quite as many. For me, the only reason any of the modifiers get difficult to track is that instead of running up against 4 or 5 monsters, your often looking at 6 to 9 (after minions). Remembering who marked who, or which of the 6 orcs in the fight has the penalty to AC from that encounter power is the problem now.

Work out an effective method for remembering which conditions apply to which monsters, and you should be Ok.

END COMMUNICATION

 

[MerricB]

You need to read my thread, Running 4E combats quickly.

Almost the only situational modifier you'll ever have is Combat Advantage (+2 to hit), and very occasionally a class power giving you an extra bonus. Neither of these should be hard to apply.

I give out monster defenses when a monster is first attacked on that defense. So, if you attack AC, I'll tell you then and there it has an AC of 28. At that point, my players work out their target numbers and everything goes quicker.

Cheers!

 

[Kzach]

I think it really comes down to group dynamics and individuals within the group and their grasp on both system mechanics and their characters and their roles.

I would rather play in a group of power gamers who all knew their characters backwards than in a group of roleplayers who'd memorised twenty pages of backstory that will never matter in the game to anyone but them.

Players with a strong grasp of the system and their characters abilities make combat fast. They know what they're going to do come their turn and they do it without uhmming and ahhing and asking loads of questions.

If someone isn't ready to go on their turn and takes heaps of time deciding what to do or has to look up their powers every turn, then talk to them and ask them to be more prepared. Everybody's time at the table is precious and time-wasters hurt everyone's enjoyment of the game.

 

[amnuxoll]

The math itself isn't what slows down combat. We rolled a die for damage and added modifiers in 1E and Basic D&D too. The slow part comes from figuring out which situational modifiers apply when and agonizing over every square of movement because a wrong step will trigger yet another attack to stop and resolve, etc.

Strong agreement here. I've been working with the idea of removing all temporary attack and defense modifiers from the game and replacing them with a token pool that you can draw on for a bonus. Doing things that normally gain you an attack bonus instead give you tokens. Whenever you attack you can spend tokens from your pool. Then the roll becomes d20 + base modifier + tokens spent. This way the game requires no memory. There's no "oh, wait! I forgot I have +1 for charging...oh! also -2 for cover...oh! and don't I still have a penalty from being marked?" etc.

:AMN:

 

[cattoy]

For average damage, Brutal shifts the average up by 1 per point. so d12 do 7.5 not 6.5.

Actually, brutal shifts the average up by .5 per point (per die)

A d6 averages 3.5 (1,2,3,4,5,6)
A d6 brutal 1 averages 4 (2,3,4,5,6)

 

[LostSoul]

There have been a number of times where the Warlock in my game has only hit because of the +1 from Prime Shot (or whatever it's called; that +1 you get for being closest to the enemy).

Thing is, that only comes up when I say, "Oh, you missed by one." Then there's a mental scramble to look for another modifier. I (as DM) also try to help out here.

My point is that you don't always need to worry about the little modifiers. If you miss by 4 then it's worth going over the modifiers to make sure you didn't miss anything. ("Wait, since he's Dazed I have CA so another +2, and the Cleric's giving me +2 - I hit!") If you miss by more than that, you probably don't need to double-check your math.

 

[Blackbrrd]

Yeah LostSoul, that is what we do as well. In nearly all fights - if you roll a 15 it's a hit, if you roll a 5 it's a miss. As a DM I know if my mobs have a defense that is higher/lower than usual and ask for the actual number. We might hit/miss when we didn't, but 90% of the time, it's a hit.

 

[MrGrenadine]

The only reason that math in D&D (4th Edition or 3rd Edition) ever gets cumbersome is not because of the numbers involved, but because of the quantity of variables. 3rd edition was really bad [edit] The 4th Edition system is easier.

Nothing in your post, or in my experience with playing 4e over the past year, supports your assertion that 3.5 was cumbersome and 4e is easier.

Tracking modifiers in 4e is just as cumbersome as ever, partly because they change from round to round and most only last a single round. And since the game now hinges even more on combat mechanics, forgetting a +1 here or there actually matters more than in 3.5.

As for the OP, I completely understand. I also think combat should be quick and exciting, and if your players are ok with it, go ahead and try what you'd like. I, however, would never play in a game with average damage. Rolling dice and the probability to do well or not is part of the fun for me.

I would put not rolling damage in the same category as using a standard array instead of rolling stats--to me, its just not the same game.

 

[Grimstaff]

Check out "Brutal 4E".

Step one: Reduce monster hit points by half.

Step two: Increase monster damage by +1 per 2 levels. (as in, a 6th level monster is +3 damage with all attacks.)

Step Three: All attacks are "High Crit". (Standard crits in 4E do max damage, whereas High Crit attacks due max damage plus another roll of the weapon die.)

More detail at the link.

 

[Hussar]

The math itself isn't what slows down combat. We rolled a die for damage and added modifiers in 1E and Basic D&D too. The slow part comes from figuring out which situational modifiers apply when and agonizing over every square of movement because a wrong step will trigger yet another attack to stop and resolve, etc.

4E combat is not designed to be quick. It is supposed to take up the bulk of playing time, otherwise the published modules wouldn't have so many combat encounters.

You need to read my thread, Running 4E combats quickly.

Almost the only situational modifier you'll ever have is Combat Advantage (+2 to hit), and very occasionally a class power giving you an extra bonus. Neither of these should be hard to apply.

I give out monster defenses when a monster is first attacked on that defense. So, if you attack AC, I'll tell you then and there it has an AC of 28. At that point, my players work out their target numbers and everything goes quicker.

Cheers!

It's so weird to me that two people looking at and playing the same game have opposite experiences.