D&D 5E (2014) An Odd Rules Issue with Suggestion

[Hussar]

Yeah, @Blue, on reflection, that is how I should have ruled it.

Well, now I know better and knowing is half the battle.

 

[Coroc]

I think while it is a fine on the spot ruling to perform a second save for the sake of a fluid game, it s more than disappointing for the bard player. What rather would be acceptable would be something like the goblin targeted with the suggestion throwing the sword back, but the other goblin trying to catch it / pick it up. Maybe with the other goblin shouting at him to leave the sword, because that's the only chance to survive.

 

[Quartz]

Due to risible metagaming.

Again I disagree. The PC just cast the spell on the wrong goblin. "When you get the sword, throw it backwards." Job done.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Again I disagree. The PC just cast the spell on the wrong goblin. "When you get the sword, throw it backwards." Job done.

That it's metagaming or that it's so bad it's risible? I could understand thinking it was acceptable metagaming but it is undeniably such. The situation is a bizarre artifact created by a peculiar juxtaposition os initiative, position and intent. The relay is an impossible and irrational situation.

 

[billd91]

The way I see it is you basically gave the goblin a free save against an effect he already failed to resist. That really is snatching a win from the players (even if relatively minor), so I can see why they'd be upset.

 

[Hussar]

The way I see it is you basically gave the goblin a free save against an effect he already failed to resist. That really is snatching a win from the players (even if relatively minor), so I can see why they'd be upset.

Yeah. That's about the long and the short of it right there.

 

[Umbran]

Due to risible metagaming.

Laughable... only in the sense that we really are talking about a funny scene. What's being described is a staple of slapstick comedy. If you prefer physical modelling to leaning into genre tropes - this is an entirely believable scene in a game of rugby.

Yes, the action order and initiative enables this. But, the argument against it is the idea that a person moves a fixed distance per round, and that is also a game-rule artifact. You are metagaming if you use the initiative artifact, but you are also metagaming to rely on fixed movement rates per unit time. Ultimately, you cannot solve an issue of metagaming by pointing to the rules. To stop metagaming, you have to step outside the rules to what "should" happen, regardless of what the rules say.

The movement rules are a poor model for a chase scene, especially in cluttered terrain (like woodlands, or a busy market square), where someone who is not as fast on the straightaway can still get away if they corner well - a distinction the game rules don't account for at all. If you don't believe me, ask any parent who has chased a soapy wet toddler through their home.

 

[Hussar]

In my defense, and, I'm freely admitting here that I now think I made a poor ruling, my granting the Suggestioned Goblin a second saving throw wasn't to allow him to break the charm. The question that came up at the table was, "Does Suggestion prevent the Suggested victim from allowing or taking actions that are not directly contrary to the Suggestion?" IOW, normally, the goblin would have allowed the other goblin to take the sword, no problem. That was part of their strategy and was also something of an artifact of the terrain, an Entangle spell being cast, so on and so forth.

Now, handing off the sword isn't contradicting the Suggestion, specifically, although, looking at it now and not in the moment, I can certainly see the argument that it could be interpreted that way, or, rather, I should say, allowing the other goblin to take the sword isn't contradicting the Suggestion specifically. So, should the Suggestion spell cause the goblin to treat his ally as an enemy and resist the ally taking the sword?

Well, in the moment, I wasn't sure. So, I used a second saving throw as a measure - when in doubt, roll dice after all. The Suggested Goblin made the second save (not breaking the Suggestion, but, not resisting either) and the other goblin took the sword.

But, yeah, that's a bit too convoluted, thinking about it now. It would have been much simpler to allow the Suggestion to work as intended.

These kinds of spells are kinda tricky to adjudicate. You don't want to make them too powerful, but, at the same time, you don't want to screw over the caster either. It's a really fine line to tread.

 

[FrogReaver]

To be fair, it hadn't gotten to a chase scene. It was a combat (three way combat at that) where the goblins were trying to get away from both the party and the undead guardians. And everyone was chasing the sword. In game it actually looked okay as they were scrambling over terrain, sometimes one goblin would take an attack, and not double move, that sort of thing.

Like I said, that part of things wasn't something I was having an issue with. It was just an odd interaction between the Suggestion Spell, Initiative and plausibility.

Although, thinking about it, I kinda screwed over the caster, who succeeded on casting the spell, so, I probably shouldn't have taken that success away. Funny thing is, the Suggested Goblin wound up dying before he even actually got an action. I was going to have him take the sword back from the other goblin, by force if necessary, and throw it back.

Suggestion says the creature will pursue that course of action. A creature wanting to throw back a sword will not hand it to his ally. I forsee a str contest as the out come there (though letting the other goblin have it and telling him to throw it back might have been more amusing) - in the future the suggested goblin attempts to possess the sword to throw it back or to convince the other to do so. (Your 2nd save had a similar effect and probably gave the player a better success rate than the contested atheletics and so I wouldn't worry much about it).

 

[FrogReaver]

The suggestion was to throw the sword back or you will die - I don't think that rises to a "You must throw the sword back or you will die". Therefore my take is that as long as the sword gets thrown back by someone the suggestion is completed.