D&D 4E An Olive Branch to 4e Fans: Some Things 5e Should Take From 4e

Tony Vargas

Legend
Notably absent on the list: daily powers for martial characters.

It's OK, aparently, to give casters at-wills, but make the corresponding adjustment and let non-casters get a little plot power?
 

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Falling Icicle

Adventurer
Notably absent on the list: daily powers for martial characters.

It's OK, aparently, to give casters at-wills, but make the corresponding adjustment and let non-casters get a little plot power?

I didn't include it in my list because I don't like it. I'm not much of a fan of vancian, daily, fire-and-forget stuff for spellcasters. It makes even less sense to me for fighters to work that way.

Don't get me wrong, I want fighters to be awesome. I just don't want them to work the same way spellcasters do. I hope that not all spellcasters are vancian either. I want my at-will warlocks back too! ;)
 

CM

Adventurer
Notably absent on the list: daily powers for martial characters.

It's OK, aparently, to give casters at-wills, but make the corresponding adjustment and let non-casters get a little plot power?

I have absolute faith that we will see plenty of options for martial classes to enable them to do cool, cinematic stunts. If, as many are hoping, math-only tax feats are eliminated, this would be the perfect use for feat chains.
 

kinem

Adventurer
To crit in 4e you need a natural 20, not just a 20+ on your attack roll. The dice itself must be a 20, so there is a 5% chance to crit, not every hit.

You misunderstood (and perhaps I was not 100% clear). So let me clarify:

It makes no sense if when you need to roll a (natural) 20 to hit, every hit is a crit. You'd never need to roll damage.

I wasn't talking about the AC being 20, I was talking about what happens when the die has to be 20 just to hit.

You should not have an enhanced chance to crit per hit in cases where you are unlikely to hit.

I don't mind people with two weapons getting two attacks. One of the things I didn't like about 4e was that TWF did basically nothing unless you had specific powers to utilize it. Likewise, I'm fine with certain special attacks or maneuvers letting you make an extra attack (i.e. rapid shot or flurry of blows). I just don't want to see extra attacks as the default, and I don't want to see characters with 8+ attacks per round ever again.

The # of attacks doesn't need to get that high, but some should be there. And I'm not a fan of cleave, so get rid of that.

I don't see how gaining extra attacks adds verisimilitude. It's far from realistic for a human being to shoot a bow 5 times in the span of 6 seconds. Medieval archers would usually shoot up to half a dozen arrows or so per minute, usually less. So if you want "verisimilitude", one attack per 6 second round is actually being quite generous.

They were conserving arrows; longbowmen could shoot up to a dozen a minute, according to this.

Normal archers in 3.x do get one attack per round. Only skilled ones get more.

See this. Granted, that's not a realistic combat style as it lacks power and accuracy. But a typical 20th level 3.x fighter has superhuman strength and dexterity due to magic buffs - and maybe then it could work fine. (I'm not looking for realism - magic is not real - just for simulationist self-consistency.)

In any case, there are certainly weapons that can be used to attack more than once every 6 seconds.
 
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Invisible Stalker

First Post
I'd like to keep minions and rituals around.

I'd also liked the teamwork aspect of 4e groups. Leaders were my second favorite group to play after controllers.

I hope a lot of the the new classes, races and monsters are kept around.
 

- Combat Advantage:
- No Rolling to "Confirm" Criticial Hits.
- Being able to save against a "save or suck" effect every turn in combat.
- Standard, Move and Minor Actions:
- No "iterative" attacks.
- At-Will Spells and Cantrips.
- Implements:
- Spells that required Actions to "Sustain."
- Simple, Easy to Read and Use Monster Stat-blocks
- No Rolling for Stats or Hit Points.
- No Level Drain. Good riddance!

I'm all for these. I really liked 4E, but as I play D&D solo, it doesn't work as well for me - the game was truly designed for group play.

- AC that scales with attack bonus. I always thought it was ridiculous that characters got way, way better at attacking people, but not better at defending themselves without loading up on magic items.

I agree, with the caveat that the numbers come down out of the stratophere.


- Alignment is just fluff. No class alignment restrictions. No alignment-based magic. No detect evil. No smite evil. Alignment is there as a way of describing your character's morality, nothing more. There's probably alot of people that disagree with me, but I loved that about 4e.


Well, this you and I are in disagreement on. Maybe have it be modular or have a dial, but alignment and it's affects on the world has always been a big part of my campaigns. In my 3rd and 4th games, Paladins were LG and nothing else. Monks were Lawful, Berserkers/Barbarians Chaotic.

Now if they make my approach optional, but have mechanical support in an extra module, I'd satisfied.. or I'll just houserule it like I did in 4E. :)


And I love rituals. Those need to stay. Another thing for my Magic type to collect in a book and pull out at just the right moment - love it. Leave some basic at wills, have most spells be Vancian with a spellbook and big long stuff for rituals - That would be a perfect Mage type structure for me. :)
 

SoldierBlue

First Post
I'm not a 4e 'guy' (I tend towards Pathfinder), but there are tonnes of things I think are great about 4e.

1) Flipping saving throws around. It makes no sense that a fighter attacks against a DC, but that a wizard 'creates' a DC with his spell that opponents need to save against. Better yet, get rid of saves altogether and role them into ability/level, but that's another story...regardless, 4e cleaned up this mechanic.

2) Powers. I think powers are cool. So many more options than to simply swing. I think they can detract from the narrativist aspect (would Aragorn employ a "steel serpent strike" once a battle?), but if used correctly, they provide so many more options to melee players. And I believe that they can create non-gamist effects if somehow employed correctly. Should probably remain an option, though...

3) Feywild and Shadowfell. Cool, and makes sense. Check out Poul Anderson's "The Broken Sword" to see an excellent articulation of the Feywild in action...

4) Eladrin. Allows for a different/better differentation b/w types of elves.
 

Stormonu

Legend
- Combat Advantage: A simple +2 bonus for having combat advantage is easy and simple to keep track of compared of the myriad situational modifiers you could get in previous editions (flanking, prone, flat-footed, higher ground, etc etc etc). It's also easy for things like a rogue's sneak attack. Have combat advantage - can sneak attack.

I can agree on this

- No Rolling to "Confirm" Criticial Hits. Always hated that.

As stated elsewhere, this causes problems with the "nat 20" needed to hit. Also, with the confirm, you make items that play on this, making it easier to confirm (say using a Kris dagger) or harder (giving some value to helmets, greaves and the like). Likewise, I've always instituted a houserule that if on the the confirm you get a nat 20, roll again.

- Being able to save against a "save or suck" effect every turn in combat. 3.5 started this with hold person, 4e applied to all such effects. I didn't like the "coin toss" saving throws, but it's still a good idea. Nothing is worse than being nauseated, paralyzed, dazed, or whatever else and being unable to do anything for the entire battle.

Somewhat agree - definitely don't like the static value of 10+. I'd prefer a disease-track style as I don't like the "suddenly I'm cured!" sort of results that occur with stuff like poison and such.

- Standard, Move and Minor Actions: I liked this. No full-round actions. It's simple and straightforward while giving players enough flexibility to do the kinds of things they need to do.

Pretty much agree

- No "iterative" attacks. I hated that about 3rd edition. Likewise, monsters only tend to make 1 or 2 attacks also, not claw, claw, bite, wing, wing, tail slap, rake, rend, etc.

Don't agree, but I think only fighter-types should have had access to iterative attacks as class features/feats, and they shouldn't have been at minuses.

However, I've seen some recent posts that have me thinking there's better ways to do multiple attacks such as claw/claw/bite, two-weapon fighting and "3 swings with a sword".

- AC that scales with attack bonus. I always thought it was ridiculous that characters got way, way better at attacking people, but not better at defending themselves without loading up on magic items.

Strongly disagree. I once would have agreed, but recently having gone back to play older editions I realized it was stupid that hit points and AC were trending upward. Raising both conflates the problem of long combats and raising AC alone would make combats with low-level enemies a joke. By not inflating AC but allowing HP to increase low-level foes can still be somewhat of a challenge as they can use their numbers to wear down a high-level foe.

There is also the problem that beating an opponent's AC has become synonymous with actually striking the foe - in older editions (before "Touch AC"), that wasn't necessarily the case; there are many rulebook descriptions where a "hit" could be described as a graze or even a bit of expended luck avoiding the blow through the loss of hit points.

- No Rolling for Stats or Hit Points.

I still like to have the option to roll, even though I mostly use point buy for Stats.

- At-Will Spells and Cantrips. It makes vancian casting much more bearable. I hope my wizard doesn't sit there twiddling his thumbs or pointlessly plinking things with a crossbow during all those rounds of combat where he wants to do something, but doesn't want to waste a good prepared spell. Likewise, cantrips, as the simplest of magic, should be able to be used at-will. Pathfinder likewise saw the value in that.

Not for me; at-will spells just make me cringe, though I'm not against giving out low-powered wands or scrolls (1 spell-a-day does suck to be on the receiving end, but Unlimited Power is too much). I see nothing wrong with the wizard having to rely on mundane weaponry to occasionally save his hide. Gandalf with a sword or the D&D dart-tossing mage (forget this crossbow junk!) is trope I'd like to keep in the game.

- Implements: I liked that wands, staffs, etc improved a caster's spells in much the same way that magical weapons improve attacks. It makes much more sense for me for a wand or staff to serve as a focus for a wizard's powers than a spell battery.

I liked this as well, though I still like being able to give out "spell batteries" once in a while.

- Spells that required Actions to "Sustain." This is a simple and effective way of balancing alot of the more "overpowered" spells, like fly, and preventing players from stacking too many buffs.

Seems reasonable, perhaps even a good alternative to spells with saves every round.

- Alignment is just fluff. No class alignment restrictions. No alignment-based magic. No detect evil. No smite evil. Alignment is there as a way of describing your character's morality, nothing more. There's probably alot of people that disagree with me, but I loved that about 4e.

Alignment has its uses - for NPCs. I'd rather open it up to "demeanors" - three adjectives that describe a character or monster. Besides Lawful, Good, Chaotic, Evil you could throw in Calm, Emotionless, Passionate, Simpleton, Lustful, Greedy, Noble, etc. Then base items, spells or effects that could tie into those demeanors.

- Simple, Easy to Read and Use Monster Stat-blocks. This makes the DM's life sooooo much easier.

Agreed, though I'd love to see them go back to taking up less space at times. (AC: 7, HD: 2, hp: 7, #Att: 2, Dam: 1d6+poison/1d6+poison, Mv: 12", Spec Att: poison 1d6, Spec Def: Teleport, Align: LE, XP: 640) has it's uses.

- No Level Drain. Good riddance!

Eh, the losing XP part I'm glad is gone, but I'd rather it just did a -1 to hit, -1 to skill checks and -3 hit points would have been plenty well enough.
 

SensoryThought

First Post
There is often a mixed response to the standard, move, and minor actions all in the same turn. Like you, I'm now a convert.

When I started 4e I would have disagreed with you with selecting 3 actions adding to slow combats. But after 3-4 months of weekly gaming my players now just know what each type of action is and combat runs a lot faster. And there is less argument than 2e (why can't I draw my sword, swing on the chandelier, cat-roll and swing my sword and then swig a healing potion?).
 

Njall

Explorer
I'll be the first to admit, I'm not a huge fan of 4th edition. But there are quite a few things that I think it did right, and I'd like to see those good ideas pass on to the new edition. Here's some of the things I'd like to see:

- Combat Advantage: A simple +2 bonus for having combat advantage is easy and simple to keep track of compared of the myriad situational modifiers you could get in previous editions (flanking, prone, flat-footed, higher ground, etc etc etc). It's also easy for things like a rogue's sneak attack. Have combat advantage - can sneak attack.

Yes, thank you.

- No Rolling to "Confirm" Criticial Hits. Always hated that.

- Being able to save against a "save or suck" effect every turn in combat. 3.5 started this with hold person, 4e applied to all such effects. I didn't like the "coin toss" saving throws, but it's still a good idea. Nothing is worse than being nauseated, paralyzed, dazed, or whatever else and being unable to do anything for the entire battle.

- Standard, Move and Minor Actions: I liked this. No full-round actions. It's simple and straightforward while giving players enough flexibility to do the kinds of things they need to do.

Agree.

- No "iterative" attacks. I hated that about 3rd edition. Likewise, monsters only tend to make 1 or 2 attacks also, not claw, claw, bite, wing, wing, tail slap, rake, rend, etc.

For me, it depends on how the game's supposed to be balanced. If the premise is the same as in 4e ( everyone should be equally effective in combat ) then I agree. Otherwise, I'm fine with iterative attacks, as long as they all use the same attack bonuses and damage.
I hate how 3.x handles multiple attacks, it's clunky and takes a lot of time to resolve.

- AC that scales with attack bonus. I always thought it was ridiculous that characters got way, way better at attacking people, but not better at defending themselves without loading up on magic items.

This is almost a dealbreaker for me. If there's an AC statistic in the game, then it should remain roughly comparable to attack bonus, otherwise it's just wasted space. Tone down HP or increase damage, but AC should scale with AB IMHO.
This is especially important if D&DNext's natural healing is slower than 4e's.

- No Rolling for Stats or Hit Points.

I'd prefer it as well.

- At-Will Spells and Cantrips. It makes vancian casting much more bearable. I hope my wizard doesn't sit there twiddling his thumbs or pointlessly plinking things with a crossbow during all those rounds of combat where he wants to do something, but doesn't want to waste a good prepared spell. Likewise, cantrips, as the simplest of magic, should be able to be used at-will. Pathfinder likewise saw the value in that.


- Implements: I liked that wands, staffs, etc improved a caster's spells in much the same way that magical weapons improve attacks. It makes much more sense for me for a wand or staff to serve as a focus for a wizard's powers than a spell battery.

- Spells that required Actions to "Sustain." This is a simple and effective way of balancing alot of the more "overpowered" spells, like fly, and preventing players from stacking too many buffs.

Agree.

- Alignment is just fluff. No class alignment restrictions. No alignment-based magic. No detect evil. No smite evil. Alignment is there as a way of describing your character's morality, nothing more. There's probably alot of people that disagree with me, but I loved that about 4e.

I'd love if they just made Alignment a campaign quality, a-la Fantasycraft.
Want to use it? Fine, but don't balance the core of the game around it, please.

- Simple, Easy to Read and Use Monster Stat-blocks. This makes the DM's life sooooo much easier.

- No Level Drain. Good riddance!

Yes to both.
 

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