Anachronisms in Fantasy

[Jehosephat]

I'm curious. What do those in the anti-anachronism think of adventures like Expedition to the Barrier Peaks or the DA/Blackmoor series?

 

[Orius]

I like a certain amount of sword and sorcery, but I also like a certain amount of high magic fantasy as well. The trick is combining them well. So, I want airships in my world because it's the flavor I want. Lightning rail? Not too bad, the way I understand, there's only one in all of Eberron, and people who complain about it are overstating the case quite a bit. Crystal ball internet? Magic PDAs and videophones? No thank you.

Things like Expedition to the Barrier Peaks, Tale of the Comet, the old Blackmoor stuff, that doesn't bother me as much. Crashed spaceships and relics of advanced civilizations have a certain amount of internal logic to them, unlike campy modernisms that clash with a D&D campaign.

 

[Captain Tagon]

Probably why I like Cyberpunk and Conan, but not Eberron or Shadowrun.

And yet I love Eberron and Shadowrun but find most Cyberpunk dull and Conan nearly unreadable.

I love anachronisms in RPGs, but I don't consider the lightning rail in Eberron to be one. It makes fundamental sense, more so than most fantasy settings. Same with guns and warjacks in Iron Kingdoms. They've created a self consistent worlds that logically make sense and aren't just ugly parodies of the real world with anachronistic elements thrown in.

 

[Andor]

Glech. What I don't get is how people can find a culture that makes practical use of magic jarring, but have no problem with a ten thousand year old civilization that has made no technological progress. How come you find it implausible that a fantasy civilization might have a modern system of government, yet expect them to have modern attitudes towards money, religion, gender and race?

Why on earth do you expect a fantasy world to look like medieval Europe when it has different history, geography, technology and physics.

Why do people have a problem with gunpowder when gunpowder existed in china contemporaneously with dark ages Europe, and was used in Europe through much of what we think of as medieval times?

Sorry that this turned into a rant, but this pushed a button.

The bottom line is: Make whatever sort of world you want, but don't, for pitys sake, complain about an 'anachronism' that makes logical internal sense for someone else world.

-Andor

 

[Desdichado]

I disagree. D&D is not fantasy full stop, it's mostly a specific subgenre of fantasy - swords & sorcery fantasy.

In swords & sorcery fantasy, SUVs and trains are an anachronism because they present suspension of disbelief problems when put alongside medieval-level technology. In Lord of the Rings, there was no magic train - nor any motor scooters - to take the hobbits to Mordor, and if you think this would have improved the story, then keep your peanut butter out of my chocolate, so to speak.

Your argument would have more weight if you'd realized that Lord of the Rings is most certainly not sword & sorcery fantasy. And it's debatable how much D&D is as well -- personally I lean towards not very.

 

[rounser]

I'm curious. What do those in the anti-anachronism think of adventures like Expedition to the Barrier Peaks or the DA/Blackmoor series?

I like Blackmoor, the Temple of the Frog and the City of the Gods, and I don't mind power armour or laser guns turning up in that setting. I think it's handled quite well, and the introduction of an alien, sci-fi presence is integrated into the setting. It's jarring, but that's okay to an extent, because the Blackmoor people themselves find it jarring and weird. Their technology has not evolved to include high tech besides swords, so that's one less anachronism to swallow.

Expedition to the Barrier Peaks I'm not so hot on. It's much more token than the Blackmoor crash, and as such more of a sudden break with the setting's conventions. In fact, I think it was intended as such - a way to generate interest in Metamorphosis Alpha.

Your argument would have more weight if you'd realized that Lord of the Rings is most certainly not sword & sorcery fantasy.

Yeah, I know it's not Conan, or pulpy at all for that matter. Epic fantasy, or something, isn't it? Anyway, I think this is splitting hairs for purposes of this argument.

 

[Captain Tagon]

Yeah, I know it's not Conan, or pulpy at all for that matter. Epic fantasy, or something, isn't it? Anyway, I think this is splitting hairs for purposes of this argument.

It is High Fantasy, which is very very very far from being swords and sorcery, a fact for which I am very thankful. Different concept, different execution, and a vastly different point.

 

[rounser]

t is High Fantasy, which is very very very far from being swords and sorcery, a fact for which I am very thankful. Different concept, different execution, and a vastly different point.

Very good. And Elric's not S&S either, technically - it's Dark Fantasy, apparently. Can we now stop splitting hairs? I can't call D&D's genre pulp fantasy because people confuse it with contemporary pulp, and Eberron hasn't helped in that respect.

D&D is not as all-inclusive as the term fantasy as such, unless you make it so. As depicted at it's core, by it's implied setting, it's a subgenre of it (albeit a fairly broad one), and this thread is pretending it isn't.

 

[Starman]

See, this is another thing I don't get - D&D is pulp swords & sorcery fantasy already. It doesn't need contemporary pulp added on top of that - why not play up or emphasise the S&S pulp which D&D is already all about rather than bring in jarring and anachronistic modern pulp concepts?

D&D was influenced by pulp and swords & sorcery, certainly, but it is almost certainly its own genre now.

I don't get why you think that things like the Lightning Rail in Eberron are "jarring and anachronistic." They didn't just decide that these cultures came up with the steam engine one day. It was created with magic. Are you saying that you can't imagine spellcasters ever developing magical creations that resemble more modern technologies? It seems quite plausible to me.

Starman

 

[rounser]

It was created with magic. Are you saying that you can't imagine spellcasters ever developing magical creations that resemble more modern technologies? It seems quite plausible to me.

Yes, very plausible. But when you begin to go down that path, all sorts of other questions can be raised as to why such and such else magitech hasn't been invented, or why magic hasn't been used in this way.

You may have no trouble going down this path a bit, might even think it logical to do so. I say that doing so destroys suspension of disbelief, because if X (magical trains), why not Y (magical jet aircraft) and Z (magical burrowing machines). It also does a very good job of destroying the mythical and medieval flavour that D&D leans on for "mythic resonance". Don't underestimate the power of this either - there are good thematic reasons why the game has magic wands rather than magic machine guns, and magic carpets rather than magic jetpacks.

Not following the repercussions of magic on a fantasy society doesn't make sense, but it's the lesser of two evils, IMO. While you're at it, why not explore the ramifications of having a world full of monsters, or how a lone 20th level fighter could route entire armies (assuming he could avoid being grappled)?

Ramifications of magic is no less silly than following through on these examples, but because it's an area of interest to people, it gets experimented with more - it's pulling the curtain on the Wizard of Oz, and personally, I'd really rather he be left alone to do his thing. YMMV.

Having said that, there's definitely room for the odd anachronism - I just think it's less good to go prime time with it without good justification (e.g. Athas is weird, psionics is weird, so a good match). For instance, Trobriand and his magic clockwork creations sequestered down in Undermountain is quite cool, IMO, but magical robots as a common PC race is uncalled for, IMO.