D&D General (Anecdotal) conversations with Asian gamers on some problems they currently face in the D&D world of RPG gaming

[Mercurius]

they're still weren't under any legal obligation to close down, don't distort the fact that it was their own conscious decision to close down.

Of course it was, but this is a highly selective reading of the situation. The allegations were absurd, and they were pressured and threatened. Not cool, and a clear example of the type of things that can and do happen when outrage is misapplied.

 

[Bedrockgames]

they're still weren't under any legal obligation to close down, don't distort the fact that it was their own conscious decision to close down.

I don't now this story well enough, as it happened on the other side of the country, but if there were indeed death threats and harassment, that is coercion and intimidation. It is a very different thing if they decided to close because they heard what people had to say about their cuisine and appropriation, and felt closing was the ethical thing to due, versus if they were fearful for their safety or their lives and closed because there was a risk someone was act on one of those threats.

 

[Panda-s1]

Of course it was, but this is a highly selective reading of the situation. The allegations were absurd, and they were pressured and threatened. Not cool, and a clear example of the type of things that can and do happen when outrage is misapplied.

the allegations were absurd? I read up on this, the women who own the cart themselves talked about how while on a trip to Mexico they badgered local women into talking about their tortilla making technique and basically invaded their privacy. "they didn't say they badgered them!" of course they didn't, most people will use softer language if they feel their actions might be perceived as bad, that's just human nature.

I'm not saying only Mexicans can make tortillas (and I say this as a Mexican), that's not the issue. there are plenty of recipes and videos on the internet about how to make them, and if these women took a class or had some sort of apprenticeship with or even friendly neighbors with one of these tortilla making women it'd be a very different story. but that's not what happened here, they tried to take someone else's recipe and profit off of it. if they stole a recipe from a local restaurant we'd be talking about things like "trade secrets" but that's not even what happened from a legal standpoint.

 

[Panda-s1]

I don't now this story well enough, as it happened on the other side of the country, but if there were indeed death threats and harassment, that is coercion and intimidation. It is a very different thing if they decided to close because they heard what people had to say about their cuisine and appropriation, and felt closing was the ethical thing to due, versus if they were fearful for their safety or their lives and closed because there was a risk someone was act on one of those threats.

it doesn't matter, they made the decision to close down, and they're not under any legal order to not open up a new restaurant. why not try opening a restaurant with their own original ideas?

 

[Catolias]

It all boils down to ...

Be intimate with the identity and know what you are talking about,

before you try appropriate someone elses identity.



The culture itself is the "guidance". Understand the culture.

Great, but how do you do that? How do you translate a culture into a fantasy setting? And which culture? The dominant culture or a subculture? Which time period?

And how do you translate 15th century Rajasthani culture or 18th Century Hyderabad when you are a 15 year old kid in 21st Century Detroit or Belgrade? How do you translate a culture that is now extinct and be mindful (Incan or Aztec, for instance) when the only frame of references that remains are an invader’s voice.

Culture adapts and changes all the time. Our understanding of historic culture changes too. The only fixed culture is a dead culture.

 

[Mercurius]

the allegations were absurd? I read up on this, the women who own the cart themselves talked about how while on a trip to Mexico they badgered local women into talking about their tortilla making technique and basically invaded their privacy. "they didn't say they badgered them!" of course they didn't, most people will use softer language if they feel their actions might be perceived as bad, that's just human nature.

I'm not saying only Mexicans can make tortillas (and I say this as a Mexican), that's not the issue. there are plenty of recipes and videos on the internet about how to make them, and if these women took a class or had some sort of apprenticeship with or even friendly neighbors with one of these tortilla making women it'd be a very different story. but that's not what happened here, they tried to take someone else's recipe and profit off of it. if they stole a recipe from a local restaurant we'd be talking about things like "trade secrets" but that's not even what happened from a legal standpoint.

Yes, absurd, even moreso when you add in descriptive terms and phrases like "badgered" and "invaded their privacy."

 

[Mirtek]

To take a sacred concept of a reallife identity, and misrepresent it as something that it is not, is inflammatory.

That is how human cultures evolved and change more or less since the first two different tribes met.

People see something of a different culture they like and start adding a litte of a misinterpreted mess of the original concept (which they often even only liked to begin with because they misinterpreted what they saw) to their culture.

The whole US culture was welded together that way and that was once called "melting pot" and seen as a beacon for the free world to take as a paragon example,

Today's USA would most likely not exist if "that's cultural appropriation" would have been a thing back then. Without appropriating the misreprensted #### out of each each other the USA would have long since collapsed into a bunch of different nations because it would have lacked the common amalgan of a culture to bind all of this together

 

[Bagpuss]

they're still weren't under any legal obligation to close down, don't distort the fact that it was their own conscious decision to close down.

Oh so bullying, harassment and death threats are fine then, just so we are all clear. How do you stand on SWATting?

 

[Panda-s1]

And how do you translate 15th century Rajasthani culture or 18th Century Hyderabad when you are a 15 year old kid in 21st Century Detroit or Belgrade? How do you translate a culture that is now extinct and be mindful (Incan or Aztec, for instance) when the only frame of references that remains are an invader’s voice.

you don't need someone from that culture to tell you that invasion and genocide are bad.

 

[Bedrockgames]

it doesn't matter, they made the decision to close down, and they're not under any legal order to not open up a new restaurant. why not try opening a restaurant with their own original ideas?

Because if they were threatened with violence, and that is why they chose to close, there is a serious moral issue with the closure. Do you think people should have threatened their lives over this?

 

[Catolias]

you don't need someone from that culture to tell you that invasion and genocide are bad.

No, I don’t but others might. But leave that aside, how would you translate a culture that you can’t know because you do not live in it? A past culture is in the past. It is not fully knowable. The past is a foreign country.

 

[Catolias]

The whole US culture was welded together that way and that was once called "melting pot" and seen as a beacon for the free world to take as a paragon example,

Today's USA would most likely not exist if "that's cultural appropriation" would have been a thing back then. Without appropriating the misreprensted #### out of each each other the USA would have long since collapsed into a bunch of different nations because it would have lacked the common amalgan of a culture to bind all of this together

Not just US culture, but every culture.

Language gives an amazing insight into this. Words like pyjama or bungalow are not English but Indian in origin. Beef is not English in origin, it’s French.

Food is another. Spaghetti’s origins are in the noodles of China. Fancy an Indian curry? Well “curry” is not Indian. It’s a generic English word applied to a type of food. And if you want “Indian” food, where from? Kerala? North India? Think bolognese sauce was always available in the Italian peninsula? Think again: the tomato came from the americas and was considered poisonous well into the 16th century. So, that food didn’t exist as we know it prior to then.

The idea that today’s nation states represent a monolithic culture is ridiculous. It is also ignorant of history to suggest that the cultures that exist today did not meld other older cultures. That melding might have been by force or by agreement.

 

[Panda-s1]

Because if they were threatened with violence, and that is why they chose to close, there is a serious moral issue with the closure. Do you think people should have threatened their lives over this?

okay so there's a serious moral issue with the closure but not any with the creation and theme of their restaurant? also 1) no one's actually found out if they brought up death threats. 2) the existence of death threats doesn't mean other issues magically go away. sometimes people do the right thing and get death threats for it, it doesn't mean what they did was wrong or should stop. I'm not saying death threats are okay, but I am saying you can't use them to obfuscate the underlying issue.

No, I don’t but others might.

if others do need it then that's an issue beyond culture.

But leave that aside, how would you translate a culture that you can’t know because you do not live in it? A past culture is in the past. It is not fully knowable. The past is a foreign country.

this is how the vast majority of human history is. things like genocide and invasion aside there are cultures archaeologists and historians discovered that we know nothing about apart from a few remaining artifacts or mentions in historical records from other civilizations.

it's unfortunate that we might not have first hand accounts of these cultures aside from historical records from invaders, but I'd at least try and reassess why you need to "translate" these cultures.

 

[Umbran]

Mod Note:

Folks, is this a site about Rest-Stops and Restaurants? No? Then please bring the thread around to something gaming-relevant. Thank you.

 

[Catolias]

it's unfortunate that we might not have first hand accounts of these cultures aside from historical records from invaders, but I'd at least try and reassess why you need to "translate" these cultures.

I’m not a computer. The information I read is translated by a whole range of different ideas and thoughts that have made me into the person I am. The introduction of this new information changes me further too.

In the context of fantasy rpg, I have to translate cultures as I don’t play a historically accurate representation. The last time I looked elves, dwarves, orc, areanea, owlbears and displaced beasts existed in Safavid Persia.

 

[Panda-s1]

okay let's go back to an anecdotal conversation with an Asian about OA.

anyone wanna defend this description of rice? anyone? if you want some insight there are large parts of "Shou Lung"/"T'u Lung" where rice is only secondary to wheat as far as staple grains go.

 

[Catolias]

okay let's go back to an anecdotal conversation with an Asian about OA.
View attachment 123570
anyone wanna defend this description of rice? anyone? if you want some insight there are large parts of "Shou Lung"/"T'u Lung" where rice is only secondary to wheat as far as staple grains go.

No. But that goes to my earlier comment that WotC should be held responsible by being made to update and reissue OA. Placing a disclaimer on it or removing it from circulation lets Wotc off the hook. It does nothing to address what is an evidentially ridiculous statement.

 

[Panda-s1]

No. But that goes to my earlier comment that WotC should be held responsible by being made to update and reissue OA. Placing a disclaimer on it or removing it from circulation lets Wotc off the hook. It does nothing to address what is an evidentially ridiculous statement.

updating and reissuing doesn't solve anything. if you mean make an entirely new edition, well the original book still exists and they're still selling it. you can just not sell the book.

 

[Haldrik]

okay let's go back to an anecdotal conversation with an Asian about OA.
View attachment 123570
anyone wanna defend this description of rice? anyone? if you want some insight there are large parts of "Shou Lung"/"T'u Lung" where rice is only secondary to wheat as far as staple grains go.

Heh, it is kinda shocking that OA somehow managed to make "rice" somewhat offensive.

That is amazing.

 

[Panda-s1]

Heh, it is kinda shocking that OA somehow managed to make "rice" somewhat offensive.

That is amazing.

isn't it? and I'm sure a lot of the people who defend it will read that and be like "well duh all Asians eat rice!" like they can't see past their own presumptions about Asian culture to think of why someone might find this offensive.