Animals as cohorts

[Jixan]

I was taking a look at Savage Species, here's what I came up with for the Tiger.

HD: 6
Unbalanced ability scores: +1 ECL
Awakened: +2 ECL (intelligence, speech, etc.)

So, I'd probably go with 9 ECL for determining cohort level.

-Jixan

 

[Conaill]

Do you really think that Str 22, Dex 15, Con 17 plus Improved Grab and Pounce are only worth a +1 LA? Seems low to me...

 

[Will]

One thing I'm not seeing in these comparisons is estimations of the benefit 'paid' for by animal HD.

As near as I can calculate it, an animal HD is 'worth' about 1/2 a class level, so 6 HD is already up to +3 LA equivalent.

 

[Conaill]

Another precedent is the Tauric template from MM2, where you take a humanoid upper torso and attach it to a Medium or Large 4-legged animal body. Humanoid mental stats, animal physical stats. Add HD together and a +3 LA. Has better BAB (as Ftr) than the awakened animal, and has *arms*. Otherwise fairly comparable.

Note that the human-tauric-wolf would have exactly the same ECL as a natural human-were-wolf, but the latter is much superior, which could be another indication that lycanthrope LA's are fishy.

Without the arms and with the poorer BAB, perhaps it might be fair to peg awakened animal LA at a +2? At least for Medium or Large 4-legged animals (i.e. no arms, no flight, no snakes)... On the low side for the warhorse, but I could live with that...

 

[Jixan]

Do you really think that Str 22, Dex 15, Con 17 plus Improved Grab and Pounce are only worth a +1 LA? Seems low to me...

I still think 9 ECL is reasonable and fair. As a test, I ask myself what would I rather be, a normally equipped 9th level fighter (ECL 9) or a 6HD Awakened Tiger (what I'm rating as ECL 9). Personally, I think the fighter with many more feats than the tiger, and stats that are probably fairly similar, plus weaponry and armor, would in my mind surpass the tiger's combat prowess. I don't think it would be completely over the top, however, so I think 9 is fair. I wouldn't go higher than 9 though.

Cheers,
Jixan

Edit: grammar

 

[Conaill]

As a test, I ask myself what would I rather be, a normally equipped 9th level fighter (ECL 9) or a 6HD Awakened Tiger (what I'm rating as ECL 9). Personally, I think the fighter with many more feats than the tiger, and stats that are probably fairly similar, plus weaponry and armor, would in my mind surpass the tiger's combat prowess.

Once awakened, that would be an 8HD awakened Tiger, of course. And there's no way that the stats will be "fairly similar".

Let's look at a Ftr10 versus an awakened tiger Ftr1 (that's the way Savage Species recommends doing the comparisons), without assigning 4d6 stats, elite stat array, or stat increases for HD (both will get similar benefits from that anyway).

Ftr10:
10d10 = 55 hp
BAB +10, Full attack +10/+5 greatsword (2d6)
Saves: Fort +7, Ref +3, Will +3

awakened tiger Ftr1:
8d8+d10+27 = 68 hp
BAB +7, Full attack 2 claws +12 (1d8+6) plus bite +7 melee (2d6+3)
Saves: Fort +11, Ref +8, Will +3

The Fighter may have better armor (note that the tiger starts with a base of 14, but would have to get extra armor custom made). He also has 5 more feats, but the tiger has improved grab, pounce, rake, a higher Init (+2), Speed (40') and Darkvision (60'), so that looks like a wash. The tiger has better hp, better attack roll, higher attack damage, one more attack, and better saves.

Seems like the awakened tiger would easily come out on top...

 

[Conaill]

As far as differences in equipment are concerned, keep in mind that an awakened tiger PC (which is what LA assumes) would start out with the same initial wealth as a character of it's ECL.

Armor would be hard to acquire. Definitely has to be special ordered, and would cost at least quadruple (for a large nonhumanoid). Enchanting it wouldn't cost any more though! (I believe there's even some classic fanatsy art with nigh-nekkid women riding armored big cats... have to check )

Weapons are a problem of course. Although I believe there are some magic items in MotW that will enhance natural weapons, as well as a weapon enchantment that allows a weapon to be used by an animal without opposable thumbs (for wildshaped druids).

It might be interesting to do the comparison with a Monk10, where equipment is less of an issue. I can already tell that the Monk10's Flurry of blows +7/+7/+2 (d10) wouldn't stack up to the tiger's natural attacks.

 

[Jixan]

Ok, that makes sense. I also totally spaced the +2 HD upon awakening.

-Jixan

 

[smetzger]

rmor would be hard to acquire. Definitely has to be special ordered, and would cost at least quadruple (for a large nonhumanoid). Enchanting it wouldn't cost any more though! (I believe there's even some classic fanatsy art with nigh-nekkid women riding armored big cats... have to check )

Plus, without any class levels the creature is not proficient in any armor or weapons.

 

[Conaill]

Plus, without any class levels the creature is not proficient in any armor or weapons.

Ah, but you're supposed to do the "acid test" by adding one class level to the creature. So you'd be comparing an awakened tiger Fighter 1 with a Fighter X+1. So no proficiency problems... You also start out with the awakened animals having some of the other basic class abilities (like sneak attack, or rage, or flurry of blows...), which simplifies the comparison.