Annoyed with City of the Spider Queen (SPOILERS)

Actually, my players have walked through it with ease. But then again they are hard core strategists and tacticians, veteran dungeon crawlers with years of experience.

I have had to triple the number of foes in most encounters, up the levels of most of the drow and throw in a lot more undead, vampires, etc. just to slow them down.

I don't allow Raise Dead or Resurrection magic and instead use a Fate Point system. I also have rule-zeroed a few spells like Harm, but most changes from standard 3rd Edition rules are minimal.

A few fate points have been lost. But only because instead of low level drow warriors, my players have come across squads of high level drow fighter vampires armed with magic arms and armor. If I ran the module out of the book, my players wouldn't even get touched!

To challenge them I must increase the difficulty of the module! ;)

My players are just too darn good otherwise. If there were real, professional D&D dungeon crawl tournaments the way there are Quake tournaments or the NCAA Final Four, my players would likely be world champions. :)
 

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CotSQ is easily my favorite 3e adventure, precisely because forces players to think or die.

In addition to the aforementioned information gathering, a smart party should also consider using tactical retreats, misdirection (illusions), ambushes and subterfuge (magical and mundane disguises, invisibility, etc).

I did find it helpful to provide the party with an opportunity to replenish their magic items in Hillsfar. By stocking up on scrolls, potions and wands, the spellcasters could operate for longer periods without having to rest (since there are so few 'safe areas' in the adventure).
 

My players are admittedly somewhat munchkin, but they have been breezing through the Dordorien Crypts - There wasn't a single encounter there that even vaugely troubled them... mind you having a priest who can turn demons helped. They are also a level higher than recommended, but even if they were 10th level I don't think that it would have made much difference.

I can see that for the lower levels I am going to have to up the number of creatures considerably.
 

carrot said:
My players are admittedly somewhat munchkin, but they have been breezing through the Dordorien Crypts - There wasn't a single encounter there that even vaugely troubled them... mind you having a priest who can turn demons helped. They are also a level higher than recommended, but even if they were 10th level I don't think that it would have made much difference.

I can see that for the lower levels I am going to have to up the number of creatures considerably.

Thanks for all the suggestions...

I didn't feel the need to beef up the encounters, so far I've managed to cause the most trouble for the players with a couple of Alarm spells, a Web, and an area-effect Dispel Magic cast against a group of Flying/Spider climbing people.

I think the biggest issue my party has is a lack of magical information gathering... If they scouted a bit more, things likely would have turned out to be much different.

As to people "walking through it"... It's definitely possible to do much better than my current group is doing, but forgive me if I say I doubt that a group of 10th level characters has managed to work their way through this module with three times the enemies, and those of higher levels, through "skill". Not as long as whoever was running the enemies was taking advantage of a fraction of their capabilities.
 


Greetings!

mmu1:

Well, others have made some excellent commentary and offered some good advice. I would say the following:

(1) Good Intelligence/Aggressive Scouting Operations

The party should be using their magical intelligence and information gathering abilitites at all times. The party needs to deploy a system of aggressive scouting, with scouts always to the front, rear, and flanks, scouting out ambushes and enemy positions. Armed with this knowledge, the party can take evasive action as necessary, or set up ambushes of their own. As a corallary to this, the party should use camoflauge, subterfuge, and deception to the best of their abilities. The enemy should be dealing with fog, smoke, unusual sounds, mirrored images, and forces that appear to be going in one direction, then doubling back and setting up ambushes. The enemy should be somewhat in the dark about exactly how many of the party there are, where they are at any given moment, and where they might be going.

(2) Tactics/ Advanced Training

The party should rehearse their main tactical deployments, spell menus, and formations. They should have choreographed routines that kick in with machine-like precision at the sight of various enemy formations and situations. The players need to have drills down as to who ambushes, who attacks spellcasters, who attacks/delays the enemy fighters, and so on, and have it down so that the party maximizes their available firepower at precise points. For example, have several archers in the group all agree to concentrate their archery fire--all of them--against one enemy spellcaster at a time, until the spellcasters are dead. Imagine four archers firing three or four arrows per round at *one* enemy spellcaster, each and every round. In general experience, enemy spellcasters are going to go down pretty fast under such a deluge of fire. Once the spellcasters are eliminated, the party's own spellcasters can also focus on enemy heavy forces, and the party's archers can now also shift their fire against enemy fighters as well, in focused, concentrated barrages that dish out punishing damage that just can't be avoided or healed fast enough. Party clerics should be at the ready to cast available healing spells at their own friendly fighters and wizards as needed. The clerics need to heal and move, heal and move. The clerics should not stay in any one place too long, and should also be invisible and mirror imaged where possible, as they move about healing their own party members. In addition, the clerics should have a few Flame Strikes and Blade Barriers ready to cast in combat in between healing missions, as well as being aware of any opportunities where they might be able to double up on an enemy and make a decisive strike.

(3) Recruit Additional Forces

The party should at this level, have appropriate resources to hire or attract numerous cohorts, followers, mercenaries, and animal companions. Having several Dire Wolves, Dire Lions, or Dire Tigers constantly moving about and pouncing on enemy forces can be surprisingly effective!:) In addition, even if the cohorts and followers are say, 6th-10th level, they can be effective. Make sure the party equips them as good as possible, and use them aggressively! That doesn't mean of course that they throw their lives away, but deploy them aggressively! Send columns of heavy infantry against enemy formations; use groups of well-equipped archers to serve as mobile tactical artillery, showering enemy positions and important characters with dozens of arrows; deploy several squads of plate-armoured, halberd wielding soldiers, to form hedgehogs and porcupine defenses for the enemy fighters to get cought up in, as your groups of archers and wizards pummel them with archery fire and magic atacks, relentlessly killing them.

The use of dogs, leopards, boars, as well as even small ballistas can be useful. In addition, make sure the party also uses lots of mundane equipment in their operations. One alchemist globe may not be very effective. Try throwing a sack of twenty of them at the enemy, or a bag of holding filled with razor sharp caltrops, or develop a sack loaded with a few alchemist globes, a Blast Orb, and several pounds of sharpened nails. Such simple weaponry, used en masse, and aggressively, can provide the enemy forces with a much bloodier experience. The players should organize their forces, and make ruthless raids into the enemy encampments, slaughtering and terrorizing the enemy at every opportunity. The Drow must be taught what it means to know FEAR. Strike and move, strike and move. The party must use manuever warfare principles against the enemy--by using fly, dimension door, teleport, swimming, or simply by marching at the double, with little rest. The goal is to keep the enemy reacting to what the party did *last* leaving the party free to attack somewhere new and in a new way somewhere else. This aggressive tactic sets up a rhythm where the enemy is always kept off balance, and reacting. If the enemy is always *reacting* they can't be in the position of *acting* on their own, causing the party to react to *them*. This lack of initiative can be pressed against the enemy in many different ways, which all add up to the party leveraging against the enemy, and ultimately defeating the enemy or causing them to retreat from the field of battle in detail.

Furthermore, the party needs to coordinate the recruitment and concentration of reinforcments on a constant basis--troops and cohorts will die, and the party needs to set up a force-deployment system where they have a constant flow of reinforcments and troops arriving, and then deploying these forces in both concentrated assaults, but also in diversionary and decpetion operations, keeping the enemy dispersed and spread out trying to deal with several different threats, and being prevented from acting in a decisive manner against any one threat.

Does this help?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
 

We started the adventure at a bit too high level (between 15 to 18), I guess, but it didn`t seem particualary challenging, and we didn`t use our brain (but that´s not solely our fault, it is because it is really only a mindless hack & slash game with that master - but it is our only " so high level" game...).
Enter room, find Dragon, try to swallow it, fail, beat it to death, eat Gargoyle instead (Excuse me, I played a wandering zoo, er.. shifter)

But there might be some reasons why the drow aren`t preparing well for the characters -
they are chaotic evil, thus inherent unable to form alliances and make great plans, at least none that last long enough...
Having many mindless leaders (looking at the Undead Description) won´t help here, either.

Mustrum Ridcully
 

Whoa, SHARK, this is a party going on a dungeon crawl, not a mechanized infantry division assaulting a third-world country!

Regardless, I'm going to save that post- I'll want it for tomorrow's game!
 

SHARK said:

Does this help?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Well, no, not really. :D Thanks all the same, though.

I'm sure those are workable tactics, but I think you'll find most players and DM's (my group included) are more interested in recreating the battle in Moria than the siege of Helm's Deep...

Hell, I have enough trouble finding volunteers to run NPCs or PCs of missing players, and everyone thinks a party of 7 is a crowd :) Setting them up with multiple cohorts, troops, and a baggage train just isn't going to work.
 

Greetings!

Well, mmu1, I wish you the best of luck!:) If I recall, the scenario is appropriate for 12th-14th level characters, or above. I assumed 14th level is about right. Assuming a group of four characters, with minimum of 14 Charisma, and a few of the modifiers going, each character would be able to recruit cohorts of up to 12th level, and the following followers: LVL 1: 35 (900gp); LVL 2: 3 (2000gp); LVL 3: 1 (2500gp); LVL 4: 1 (3300gp);

If one assumes that each powerful player character recruits four 12th level cohorts, that's 16 extra 12th level characters; then the others multiplied means that the character party will be able to deploy 140 1st level characters; 12 2nd level characters; 4 3rd level characters, and 4 4th level characters; totaling 4 player characters, 12 powerful cohorts, and 160 other troops.

Make some of the cohorts druids, and one can increase the number of assault beasts as well; in addition to those assault animals summoned by Summon Nature's Ally, as well as any Summon Monster spells.

If the player characters sign on a good team of recruiters at the nearest city, new reinforcements can be in a constant state of training and readiness, so that the deployable force-levels can be reasonably maintained over a period of several months.

In addition, if one assumes that 5 followers from each group can be assigned as hound masters, each controlling three well-trained war dogs, that can be a force of 3x20=60 war dogs; these can be used for extra security as well as assault duties helping the troops;

I'm just saying that these resources are reasonably within the player character's grasp, and should they deploy such forces, the Drow forces in the module would be facing a very different kind of enemy. Such forces could power-project greatly into the Drow realms, and they would have a lot more to deal with than merely four player characters.

Of course, such approaches may differ, but my own players tend to think in these ways, and are always looking for ways to expand their tactical options and operational abilities.:)

Still, I hope that my contributions have been interesting!:)

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
 

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