Annoyed with City of the Spider Queen (SPOILERS)

[Green Knight]

Greetings!

mmu1:

Well, others have made some excellent commentary and offered some good advice. I would say the following:

(1) Good Intelligence/Aggressive Scouting Operations

The party should be using their magical intelligence and information gathering abilitites at all times. The party needs to deploy a system of aggressive scouting, with scouts always to the front, rear, and flanks, scouting out ambushes and enemy positions. Armed with this knowledge, the party can take evasive action as necessary, or set up ambushes of their own. As a corallary to this, the party should use camoflauge, subterfuge, and deception to the best of their abilities. The enemy should be dealing with fog, smoke, unusual sounds, mirrored images, and forces that appear to be going in one direction, then doubling back and setting up ambushes. The enemy should be somewhat in the dark about exactly how many of the party there are, where they are at any given moment, and where they might be going.

(2) Tactics/ Advanced Training

The party should rehearse their main tactical deployments, spell menus, and formations. They should have choreographed routines that kick in with machine-like precision at the sight of various enemy formations and situations. The players need to have drills down as to who ambushes, who attacks spellcasters, who attacks/delays the enemy fighters, and so on, and have it down so that the party maximizes their available firepower at precise points. For example, have several archers in the group all agree to concentrate their archery fire--all of them--against one enemy spellcaster at a time, until the spellcasters are dead. Imagine four archers firing three or four arrows per round at *one* enemy spellcaster, each and every round. In general experience, enemy spellcasters are going to go down pretty fast under such a deluge of fire. Once the spellcasters are eliminated, the party's own spellcasters can also focus on enemy heavy forces, and the party's archers can now also shift their fire against enemy fighters as well, in focused, concentrated barrages that dish out punishing damage that just can't be avoided or healed fast enough. Party clerics should be at the ready to cast available healing spells at their own friendly fighters and wizards as needed. The clerics need to heal and move, heal and move. The clerics should not stay in any one place too long, and should also be invisible and mirror imaged where possible, as they move about healing their own party members. In addition, the clerics should have a few Flame Strikes and Blade Barriers ready to cast in combat in between healing missions, as well as being aware of any opportunities where they might be able to double up on an enemy and make a decisive strike.

(3) Recruit Additional Forces

The party should at this level, have appropriate resources to hire or attract numerous cohorts, followers, mercenaries, and animal companions. Having several Dire Wolves, Dire Lions, or Dire Tigers constantly moving about and pouncing on enemy forces can be surprisingly effective! In addition, even if the cohorts and followers are say, 6th-10th level, they can be effective. Make sure the party equips them as good as possible, and use them aggressively! That doesn't mean of course that they throw their lives away, but deploy them aggressively! Send columns of heavy infantry against enemy formations; use groups of well-equipped archers to serve as mobile tactical artillery, showering enemy positions and important characters with dozens of arrows; deploy several squads of plate-armoured, halberd wielding soldiers, to form hedgehogs and porcupine defenses for the enemy fighters to get cought up in, as your groups of archers and wizards pummel them with archery fire and magic atacks, relentlessly killing them.

The use of dogs, leopards, boars, as well as even small ballistas can be useful. In addition, make sure the party also uses lots of mundane equipment in their operations. One alchemist globe may not be very effective. Try throwing a sack of twenty of them at the enemy, or a bag of holding filled with razor sharp caltrops, or develop a sack loaded with a few alchemist globes, a Blast Orb, and several pounds of sharpened nails. Such simple weaponry, used en masse, and aggressively, can provide the enemy forces with a much bloodier experience. The players should organize their forces, and make ruthless raids into the enemy encampments, slaughtering and terrorizing the enemy at every opportunity. The Drow must be taught what it means to know FEAR. Strike and move, strike and move. The party must use manuever warfare principles against the enemy--by using fly, dimension door, teleport, swimming, or simply by marching at the double, with little rest. The goal is to keep the enemy reacting to what the party did *last* leaving the party free to attack somewhere new and in a new way somewhere else. This aggressive tactic sets up a rhythm where the enemy is always kept off balance, and reacting. If the enemy is always *reacting* they can't be in the position of *acting* on their own, causing the party to react to *them*. This lack of initiative can be pressed against the enemy in many different ways, which all add up to the party leveraging against the enemy, and ultimately defeating the enemy or causing them to retreat from the field of battle in detail.

Furthermore, the party needs to coordinate the recruitment and concentration of reinforcments on a constant basis--troops and cohorts will die, and the party needs to set up a force-deployment system where they have a constant flow of reinforcments and troops arriving, and then deploying these forces in both concentrated assaults, but also in diversionary and decpetion operations, keeping the enemy dispersed and spread out trying to deal with several different threats, and being prevented from acting in a decisive manner against any one threat.

Does this help?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Damn, Shark! I feel a sudden urge, now, to go out and buy The City of the Spider Queen and give it to my DM. Not only that, I already got a thousand ideas running through my head as to how my Purple Dragon Bard/Paladin of Helm will plan his invasion of the Underdark. First order of business is to take the Leadership Feat before 10th level...

 

[Green Knight]

OK, a couple question.

LVL 1: 35 (900gp); LVL 2: 3 (2000gp); LVL 3: 1 (2500gp); LVL 4: 1 (3300gp)

That's how much the Followers cost? The DMG is woefully lacking when it comes to the Leadership Feat, and doesn't tell you how much you have to pay them, unless I'm missing something.

If one assumes that each powerful player character recruits four 12th level cohorts

OK, now I'm confused. I thought one could only take one Cohort. Is there a supplement out there that says otherwise?

In addition, if one assumes that 5 followers from each group can be assigned as hound masters, each controlling three well-trained war dogs, that can be a force of 3x20=60 war dogs; these can be used for extra security as well as assault duties helping the troops

Yeah, just take some Experts and give them the Handle Animal skill as a class skill.

Still, I hope that my contributions have been interesting!

Most definitely!

 

[rounser]

Does this help?

I liked the bit about the dogs, leopards, boars and ballistae.

You forgot the war elephants though.

 

[Black Omega]

I'm a little curious now about the module. I've been assuming it was mostly underdark action. But Shark's ideas on using fly and D-Door for surprise attacks make me wonder. Those seem less useful underground, and even Mass Teleport, which a 14th level wizard or sorc could have, wouldn't be able to effect enough for anything more than a small strike. Well, as small as 14th and 12th level characters can manage.

Since drow have darkvision out to 120 ft, it also seems like they could have a good time with all those lower level characters. Even assuming Dwarves or Halforcs, the PC's would have their hands full. Should be a good fight.

 

[mmu1]

I'm a little curious now about the module. I've been assuming it was mostly underdark action. But Shark's ideas on using fly and D-Door for surprise attacks make me wonder. Those seem less useful underground, and even Mass Teleport, which a 14th level wizard or sorc could have, wouldn't be able to effect enough for anything more than a small strike. Well, as small as 14th and 12th level characters can manage.

Since drow have darkvision out to 120 ft, it also seems like they could have a good time with all those lower level characters. Even assuming Dwarves or Halforcs, the PC's would have their hands full. Should be a good fight.

Well, the module is actually designed so that, in the area we've been talking about, the characters are only 10th-11th level, Dimension Door and Teleport lose much of their utility pretty early in the adventure, and if you brought in a horde of 1st-3rd level characters and trained animals, they'd never make it out of there alive...

*SPOILER*





Anyone trying to take the town in question outright, the hard way, (military invasion with a large force) better have some way of neutralizing a 15th level drow wizard with Archmage levels with three or four 8th-10th level students, three other 7th level wizards, several multi-classed fighter-wizards, a decent number of undead that cause paralyzing fear with a gaze attack, three or four 10th-11th level clerics, a number of vampires, a mind-flayer, a couple of Stone Giants, and an assortment of "ordinary" Drow fighters in the 3rd-7th level range.

And yes, 120 feet of darkvision gives Drow spellcasters a huge tactical advantage, that's nearly impossible to counter with any of the standard spells, as far as I've been able to tell.

 

[SHARK]

Greetings!

Hey Green Knight! I'm glad that you are inspired!

The gp allotments mentioned are what the DM's Guide says such characters come with, in equipment and magic item values. For example, the level 1 followers arrive with (900gp) in equipment. True, it isn't too much. They start typically with a chain shirt, maybe a long composite bow, shortsword, dagger, and some ordinary equipment. Obviously, the higher level followers and cohorts receive more valuable equipment and gear.

As for cohorts, no, your character is not limited in any way as to the number of cohorts that he can attract, as per the DM's Guide. I would imagine, however, that as the cohorts are trusted friends and elite servants, your character isn't likely to have a hundred of them, heh? I can see having anywhere from a few up to ten or two dozen. I see cohorts as being something like close friends and a small detachment of elite bodyguards and servants, so it seems to me that there is plenty of room for you to be creative. For example, in one campaign I have a high level Paladin, and his cohorts are something like the following:

(1) Human/Half-Celestial 14th lvl Paladin
(2) Human 14th lvl Paladin
(3) Human 14th lvl Paladin
(4) Human 14th lvl Fighter
(5) High Elf/Half-Elemental (Water) Fighter 10/Cleric 4
(6) Human 12th lvl Ranger
(7) Human 14th lvl Cleric
(8) Human 12th lvl Wizard
(9) Minotaur 12th lvl Fighter
(10) Dwarf 12th lvl Fighter
(11) Dwarf Fighter 10/Cleric 4
(12) Human Cleric 8/Expert 4 (Scholar)
(13) Human Bard 12th lvl
(14) Wolf Humanoid Fighter 6/Ranger 6
(15) Wolf Humanoid Fighter 6/Ranger 6

These are my character's close friends and elite bodyguards. They are, of course, finely equipped with powerful magic items and excellent gear with all that they need. My character gives them rewards and treasure with a generous hand, as well as risking his own life to save them or help them in many actions. My character hangs out with them, and is involved with them in various ways on a daily basis. These elite followers are in addition to the 135 lower level followers that I have outfitted and equipped for war. I have 30 or so heavy cavalry, 30 or so well-equipped archers, 40 plate-armoured heavy infantry, and a dozen or so clerics and other specialists.

My character is a 15th or 16th lvl Paladin, with a high charisma score, naturally.

Now, the other members of the group have also similarly recruited and equipped their forces. Not all of their followers are low level, of course, because, as you mentioned, if you take the Leadership Feat relatively early, and begin recruiting, and do so ona constant and consistent basis, by the time you are 12th-16th level, many of your followers will be significantly higher level than what they start out with when you first recruit them. Cohorts, likewise, gain levels as they gain experience. Indeed, if you take Leadership at 6th level, I think that you can attract a cohort of no higher than 4th level, and you get a dozen level 1 followers. Ok, stay with me on this one!--

As you, at 6th level, advance in level and power, so will your cohorts and followers. At each level rise, you gain the ability to attract additional numbers of followers, as well as more experienced cohorts. Still, by the time you are say 14th level, your cohorts are going to be various levels, say ranging from 6th or 8th level, to upwards of (at 6th you got 4th lvl cohorts, so, You: 6+8=14; cohorts: 4th+8=12th.) 12th level cohorts. Likewise, of those 12 level 1 followers that arrived when you were 6th level are now 9th level followers. Even if 50% of them die, you still have 6 that are 9th level, in addition to the new followers that you attract between the levels of 6th and 14th.

Do you see? If you have each memeber of the group do likewise, as my group does, and as I do when I play characters in other campaigns, it takes the assumed "four character party" assumption and turns it on its head, and I think logically so.

It is all about "maximizing resources". You, as a player, must use the rules and logic as given, with good tactics and logistics, to maximize your "force multipliers" and your "power-projection" abilities. For example, I do this kind of thing regularly even with lower level characters. I often buy several mules and load them with extra weapons, supplies, and gear like you wouldn't believe. I bring a pack of 10 trained war dogs. I buy a rhino. I recruit three or four mercenary archers, or I look to find four religious zealots who will serve the faith as archers for the temple, and so on. They die. I recruit more. At any given time, I always seek to have a few more troops, extra firepower, extra supplies so that I can set up traps and surprises, as well as extra war animals. They die, buy more. Always buy more! This begins to have a measurable effect, despite even experiences occasional defeats and set backs. As you and other memebers of the party seek to always maximize your resources and operational abilities, you begin to be able to have a greater impact not only on the immediate tactical battlefield, but on the campaign world around you.

These kinds of tactics and operations, as I mentioned, serve you and the party well, whether you are all 4th level, or 14th. Whether you are fighting Orcs, Drow Elves, Giants, or Dragons, these extra troops, loyal followers, and increased logistics and equipment will multiply the options available to you and the party, and will contribute to increasingly dramatic victories--in whatever environment, from urban cities, to open battlefields, to dark, treacherous dungeons.

If you and your party think carefully about these considerations, and really put your money into it, if the DM is fair and reasonable, you will greatly enhance the skills, power, and operational flexibility of your group.

mmu1: well, as you detailed the Drow defenders quite well, they are indeed formidable. However, I would offer that a group of four members+troops+followers+cohorts+animals+extra equipment will give them at least *some* increased advantage, rather than just *the four characters*, would it not?

I will admit that the Drow forces have many advantages. In my view, though, all the more need for the player group to maximize their resources and firepower to their advantage. The truth of the matter is, like you are experiencing, the Drow, if played properly, are just simply too much for four characters to deal with. I would submit that it is something of a flawed assumption within the game, so to speak, that implies that in usually whatever situation or circumstance, four heroes can just do it all, no matter what.

Now, in my own campaigns, I have tossed that assumption out the window, as when one thinks about it, whether it is a huge sprawling evil temple, a Drow fortress, or what have you, the logic behind four heroic characters defeating them all at the end of the day just breaks the believability to me. It just throws logic right out the window. In my campaigns, certainly there are indeed missions that four characters can succeed in. I don't, however, expect or set up all missions where this is the expected or even relatively possible outcome, because frankly, in many circumstances, it shouldn't be if the opposition forces are played with any kind of intelligence, if you see what I'm saying. Because of these kinds of thoughts, I gear many scenarios where I expect the player characters to enhance themselves and maximize their resources and firepower, by extra troops, equipment, animals, and so on. It seems to make sense, and it also strengthens believability in various operational circumstances. It also begins to open up different options for the DM as well, and allows different kinds of games to be played. It also of course, adds additional drama and elements of roleplaying as well.

Just some thoughts though for your player group. Hopefully, they can find a way to successfully fight against the evil Drow forces, heh?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

 

[Black Omega]

Greetings!

Hola

As for cohorts, no, your character is not limited in any way as to the number of cohorts that he can attract, as per the DM's Guide.

As per Pg. 147 of the DMG, there is no limit to the number of cohorts you can employ. For that matter, you don't even need the Leadership feat to employ cohorts.

If one simple feat lets you attract unlimited cohorts is more debatable.

I would submit that it is something of a flawed assumption within the game, so to speak, that implies that in usually whatever situation or circumstance, four heroes can just do it all, no matter what.

Well, a small number of heros. 3-7 or so. I'd not call it flaws or lacking in believability, though. It's more a matter of campaign style and taste, both for the players and GM. My players mostly have followers. And aside from using them to gather information sometimes, they are kept well out of the line of fire. Personally, I don't mind if the PC's use their followers in battle or not, though it does change the type of challenges, it wouldn't make things much easier for them.

How is combat handled with so many followers of various types? I'd guess there has to be some way of streamline with so many rolls going on, or is some of what the followers do handled 'off camera'?

Just some thoughts though for your player group. Hopefully, they can find a way to successfully fight against the evil Drow forces, heh?

So very true. Ssounds like they can use every bit of help.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

I'm playing through CotSQ right now, and while I can certainly see why it is challenging my party has yet to endure a character death.

Looking at the thread we may be a little overpowered, but my understanding was that level 13 was appropriate and we have been playing through many of our encounters with a severely small party, assuming that 4-6 is the most common appropriate size.

Our success against seemingly terrible odds thus far has been due to two factors:

1.) We take advantage of all the tactical advantages and tricks that we can. We layer buff spells on our characters with the least essential spells on last so that the area dispells only take out our bull's strengths before we close for combat. We haste whenever possible and we always look for ways to surprise and confuse potential enemies. We are also very careful to avoid enemies where possible, when we do encounter them we make certain to isolate them and act extremely aggresively.

We have also carefully tailored our magical items for this campaign as we have always had some inkling that we were going to be doing some heavy underdarking at some point in our career. Among other things we make heavy use of runes, wands, scrolls, potions, and other disposable but also easily available ability expanding items.

In terms of intelligence we make heavy use of interrogation and scouts. Scry can be detected, but a bat is a bat is a bat. Druids are super-useful.

2.) While Shark's idea of an invasion is an effective strategy we are specifically without support in this setting and have opted to adopt a more discrete model of disabling our enemies' response. Over the course of the campaign we have put our efforts into a successful disinformation operation. We are not simply stealthy, though we do make use of that, are overall goal is to confuse the drow as to our specific nature and threat and to disrupt their defenses and decision making as much as possible.

In particular we are taking advantage of natural Drow paranoia and the apparent crisis to make the Drow feel they are threatened by as many different elements as possible. We have pursued several actions towards this goal. We leave evidence of battle and intruders in random places throughout our travels, use illusion to confuse our attacks even when we know victory is assured- noone should ever assume the enemy won't use speak with dead-, and we plant evidence that points to as many potentially responsible parties as possible, including intruding adventuring parties from the surface such as ourselves. That way when we leave actual evidence about our presence it will be confused by the false indications we have left in other places and situations.

We make certain to vary and complicate our forays into Drow territory and to avoid any constant plays on particular Drow weaknesses or tactics. We try not to give them any definite dangers to react against. When we must cause general destruction and mayhem we try to cause as much as possible, though we always work to maintain our tactical standard of preventing a unified Drow response, we simply loot an officers quarters for papers when you can burn all the furniture and bodies in that chamber, the one's that surround it, and a random area in a hallway we were otherwise uninterested in.

When we make camp we make camp in areas that contain other threats the Drow know about and feel they have dealt with, such as caves in which they have imprisoned Driders. We displace the original threat but make certain to promote the appearance of its continued presence.

So far this has worked, but we never know what the next session will bring.

 

[Green Knight]

Damn, Shark, you're completely right. And after re-reading the Leadership Feat, I gotta say that it's poorly put together. They seriously need to rewrite it. For one thing, they need to tell you right there in the Leadership Feat how much gold your Followers and Cohorts get, not refer you to some other page. Secondly, they need to tell you that you can get more than 1 Cohort. Having said that, I think it's nuts that you can get more than 1 Cohort without limit. Personally, I'd limit the number of Cohorts to 1 plus the character's Charisma bonus (To a minimum of 1), and you can't gain more than 1 Cohort per level. For instance, someone with a Cha 18 can have up to 5 Cohorts, while someone with a Cha 12 can have only 2. And if you take Leadership at 6th level you only get 1 Cohort, then another at 7th, etc. That's just me, anyway.

Well, and here all this time I was wondering what Cohort I should take for my character. Nevermind that. I'll take a couple. If I were to go with your suggested 4 this is what I'd probably take:

• Wizard - Most likely a War Wizard. Our party is lacking in a Wizard, so this is a must.
• Artificer or Gnome Artificer - A member of either the Artificer class from Mongoose's Power Classes, or a member of the Gnome Artificer prestige class from Magic of Faerun.
• Bard - "When danger reared its ugly head he bravely tucked his tail and ran...". Hey, every knight needs a minstrel, right?
• Fighter - A dedicated archer to support the party from the rear.

Those're my picks, anyway.

 

[green slime]

I'd always read it that you get one cohort. Ever. THis cohort levels up as you do, as per the table in the DMG.

And then if you wanted another, you took the feat again.

Even with "my" interpretation it is still clearly the best feat in the game.

Regardless, I really enjoyed reading your post SHARK. Great stuff.