Another Chris Perkins Interview - 4th Edition Realms

[The Little Raven]

It's a lot easier to get a fan of campy-BSG to give modern-BSG a go than it is to convince someone who's never heard of it to watch it.

Not in my experience. Every fan of the previous one I've tried to get into it has rejected it simply because it's not the old one. Every fan of the new one that I've gotten into the show has no knowledge of the original series, and most of them weren't even sci-fi fans before that.

Your hardcore fans are the bedrock of your market segment.

Hardcore fans are a small section of the total customer demographic for a property.

Dragonlance reinvention (Saga, Summer Flame, War of Souls, etc) - failure

1. I think the Margaret Weis people would disagree with you there, since they've been producing excellent material for a few years now.

2. This is not a reinvention, this was an advancing of metaplot, as are your Dark Sun and Greyhawk notes. A reinvention is a reboot, not a continuation of the same story with the previous material as background.

3. Other reinventions you didn't bring up that succeeded: Halloween (Rob Zombie remake), The Italian Job (popular enough to land a sequel), Texas Chainsaw Massacre (enough to warrant a prequel), Batman Begins (quite different from Tim Burton's stylish rendition, but totally awesome), Superman Returns (only partially, since it was a sequel as well as a reinvention). Hell, Blade was a reinvention of a comic book character (quite different from his comic counterpart), and was a notable success that really spawned the modern age of comic movies.

World of Darkness reinvention (post-Gehenna) - arguable failure. I'm admittedly not sure about the exact numbers, but I get the distinct impression that NWOD isn't a patch on OWOD sales-wise, though WW has Scion and Exalted to take up the slack these days.

From everything I've seen, NWoD sells as well as OWoD, and in some cases (Promethean and Changeling) better than their previous counterparts. White Wolf seems to think their numbers are good enough to warrant spin-off games, like Vampire: Dark Influences and Prince of the City, and to continue their "new WoD game each year" trend.

somehow bland, uninspiring, lacking character and charm, and generally giving off a 'tries-too-hard' vibe

Well, to me, as a long-time oWoD fan and a nWoD fan, it's like this.

OWoD is a horror movie directed by Michael Bay. It's flashy and goofy and tugs at your heart, but at it's core is about "gotcha!" moments and explosions. I love Michael Bay movies for what they are, but I don't take myself so seriously when I watch them (I mean, come on... a clan of Middle Eastern assassin vampires?).

NWoD is a horror movie directed by Ridley Scott. It's grittier and more realistic, with a strong focus on the thematic elements that make horror distinct. A horror game that is all grown-up.

'Fighting Yet More Drow And Shar-Worshippers In A Shadowdale From Which Elminster Is Mysteriously Absent (Again)'

It's not mysterious. The Zhents invaded, kicked his and the locals' asses, and took over.

I can't really see any appeal here that's going to attract the new gamers in that will be needed to offset that percentage of old-school types who will drop off.

Since you're a veteran gamer, I'm complete unsurprised that you are unable to look at things like a new gamer would (I know I certainly can't, though I try). After all, you can only fall in love for the first time once.

 

[JoeGKushner]

I liked the original Battlestar when I was a kid.

Can't stand it now.

Enjoy much of the new Battlestar but some parts of it make the eyes roll.

Glad to see that they're got a definitive ending in mind for it though. I'm hoping with an end in sight they can keep focusing on the good stuff.

 

[The Little Raven]

Glad to see that they're got a definitive ending in mind for it though. I'm hoping with an end in sight they can keep focusing on the good stuff.

Agreed.

And the focus they lost during Season 3 was because of corporate Sci Fi telling them to stop with serialized storytelling and to do stand-alone stories (despite all the highest-rated BSG episodes being ones that were part of serialized arcs). Luckily, this practice proved to be wrong, and the last few episodes of Season 3 tied into an excellent arc.

 

[MerricB]

Agreed.

And the focus they lost during Season 3 was because of corporate Sci Fi telling them to stop with serialized storytelling and to do stand-alone stories (despite all the highest-rated BSG episodes being ones that were part of serialized arcs). Luckily, this practice proved to be wrong, and the last few episodes of Season 3 tied into an excellent arc.

I'm struggling through early Season 3 BSG at present. I keep being distracted by NCIS.

Doctor Who is a really good example of a reinvigorated property, which had similar changes to the Realms, btw.

Cheers!

 

[The Little Raven]

Doctor Who is a really good example of a reinvigorated property, which had similar changes to the Realms, btw.

Merric, you're a genius! Doctor Who is the perfect example for comparison to the Realms, as it has gone through multiple changes in direction (new Doctors/Realms-Shaking-Events) and still maintained it's popularity (as the Realms has done, as well, since it's still around and in full force).

 

[The Ubbergeek]

Merric, you're a genius! Doctor Who is the perfect example for comparison to the Realms, as it has gone through multiple changes in direction (new Doctors/Realms-Shaking-Events) and still maintained it's popularity (as the Realms has done, as well, since it's still around and in full force).

Gundam is an example of a continuously reinvented and ever-popular franchise, albeit every lines are mostly alternate universes, and the reinventions more subtile and not so overly different (like the traditional 'good' team is the 'bad' team in Wings, the less overly macho, somewhat light injection of shoujoness in SEEDS and al).

 

[Death Dealer]

It's always a balancing act. Whatever you might say about hardcore fans, they are far and away the most likely to be interested in any reinvention, even if they don't like the details or the implementation. It's a lot easier to get a fan of campy-BSG to give modern-BSG a go than it is to convince someone who's never heard of it to watch it. Your hardcore fans are the bedrock of your market segment. Any reimagination WILL alienate some of them, granted, and the internet being what it is they will likely be loud about it. What you're always doing is gambling that your reinvention will attract more new fans than it alienates old ones. And the history is decidedly mixed:

BSG reinvention (campy->modern version) - success
D&D reinvention (1e/2e -> 3e) - success
Dragonlance reinvention (Saga, Summer Flame, War of Souls, etc) - failure
Dark Sun reinvention (revised box) - failure, though I blame that more on the horrendous mess that the Prism Pentad left the setting in
Greyhawk reinvention (Wars) - failure
Buffy reinvention (movie->series) - success beyond wildest dreams
Star Trek reinvention (anything beyond Next Generation) - failure
World of Darkness reinvention (post-Gehenna) - arguable failure. I'm admittedly not sure about the exact numbers, but I get the distinct impression that NWOD isn't a patch on OWOD sales-wise, though WW has Scion and Exalted to take up the slack these days.

Looking at this list (which were the obvious examples of reinventions off the top of my head - feel free to point me at more), the thing that jumps out at me is that the successful ones have almost always been marked by a long wait between when the old version petered out and the new one showed up. Perhaps this is because the hardcore fans have some cooling-off time in which to get the hankering for *something* new even if it might not be exactly what they want, and the new fans don't have to deal with confusion between the old and new versions. The two in the above list that possibly don't quite fit the pattern are Buffy (though I'd argue the throwaway movie didn't really have much in the way of a rusted-on fanbase so the show could generate its own fans from scratch) and D&D (though I'd again argue that 2e had been pretty effectively comatose, if not quite dead for a long time before 3e came along)

I reckon the closest parallel to what we're seeing now with 4e is the oWod->nWod transition. An established, well-selling and active line getting wound up because of a) legacy artifacts and other deep-seated detritus in the ruleset that affect balance and make the game work in a way it's not intended, and b) the desire to refocus on PCs rather than deal with the limiting factors that are powerful NPCs and other fluff built up over the years. The impression i've got as to how it NWoD turned out (I haven't played it, personally) is that it's robust, flexible, and functional but is somehow bland, uninspiring, lacking character and charm, and generally giving off a 'tries-too-hard' vibe, and that a high percentage of the hardcore fans have either ignored it or adopted the best bits of the rules modification to their OWoD games. I could very easily envisage 4e going the same way, especially if one or two of the bigger and better 3rd-party d20 companies (Paizo in particular, who through their stewardship of Dragon and Dungeon have a considerably higher profile among non-internet, non-ENWorld gamers than people like GR or Necromancer) continue supporting the system.

And that (longwinded though it might be) is my big worry, about 4e in general and not just the Realms. 4e may very well solve a bunch of annoying problems that have beset earlier editions and be nifty to play, but I think it's a) inevitably going to lose a fair few hardcore fans who will keep happily on with 3.Xe or whatever, and b) I don't think it's looking to be EXCITING enough to attract new gamers to D&D. The release of 3e got covered in mainstream news. 4e almost certainly won't. And while it'll be great for WotC's D&D sales figures (blind Freddy could tell you they'll sell more of 'PHB 4e' than they would of 'Scroll of the Fey' or 'Fighting Yet More Drow And Shar-Worshippers In A Shadowdale From Which Elminster Is Mysteriously Absent (Again)' or 'Complete Oozewrangler' or whatever other niche 3.5e concept they scraped up to fill up the product schedule) and that means D&D is likely to justify its existence to Hasbro for a little longer, I can't really see any appeal here that's going to attract the new gamers in that will be needed to offset that percentage of old-school types who will drop off.

When 3E came out the reinvention was necessary. I had long lost interest in D&D, having progressed through BECMI, 1E & 2E. 3E rocked and was closer to the game I had always envisioned. I think there was a necessity for 3E that does not exist for 4E. Bear in mind I am looking forward to 4E, but I don't belive 3/3.5E is dead in the water the same way 2E was prior to 3E release. The one thing I can say in support of 4E though, is 3.5 is oversaturated with prestige classes. That and the fact that many people find most of the PrC's & new base classes better than the 11 core classes, I can see why Wizards is going forward with 4E. From what I have read so far, and I hope this is true, there will be no PrC's, but options to make your base class progress in that direction (through talents? class kits?) Several PrC's have been named, but they specifically said they would be options (at the Paragon level?) you could choose for your character, not multiclassing. Having said all this, I agree, 4E will lose hardcore 3/3.5 fans & not attract new gamers the way 3E did.

 

[Uzzy]

Plenty of reinventions kill the franchise, or at best split the player base. Say what you will for us 'grognards', but we would be the ones 1) Advertising the game via Word of Mouth, which is much more powerful then some interviews that tell us nothing, 2) Doing fanbased work for the Realms, such as working on the Living Realms and 3) Purchasing the books. Would the New Realms, with that reputation it allegedly has, truly attract a mass of new players? I don't know.

Anyway, how did we get two threads? I'll ask a mod to merge them.

 

[sunrisekid]

I liked the Realms back in the days when I understood it... but that was back during AD&D 1st ediiton.

This is probably good for lapsed Realms-fans like myself and new Realms fans, but not so much for current Realms fans.

My Realms usage goes back to the older publications. I picked up a copy of the 3E version of the FRCS when it came out but I never actually gamed with it. I simply didn't like most of the new concepts that it shipped with (eg, Shadoweave). After a while it just felt like there was nothing actually "forgotten"; every square mile seemed to be covered by some publication, game, or what have you. If the points-of-life concept is applied to the FR setting it might actually start to feel mysterious again and less like an encyclopedia of an imaginary, albeit deeply described, world. The way things are now it's more like a well-mapped campaign world containing patches-of-darkness.

Re-tooling the Realms sounds like it might breath new life into the setting. I'll probably pick up a copy of the new release and sell my old 3E FRCS at a games store.

 

[Davelozzi]

Doctor Who is a really good example of a reinvigorated property, which had similar changes to the Realms, btw.

Wow, I had no idea that Doctor Who was still around. I totally thought that it was only an active franchise when I was a kid.