Another Dex and Weapon Damage Thread.

[5ekyu]

So, for my game I have one NPC who (for reasons) has Dex 20 and no weapon proficiencies. But, she foes have bow and daggers etc. Obviously, she can use them without prof with a lower to-hit than some others, but what struck me is that her damage *per hit* is higher than most cuz it's only the attention bonus that adds, not proficiency.

This led me to wonder about whether proficiency applying to damage would be a good thing or not?

Obviously Any number of mechanics can be used...

Damage boost is sum of attacks and prof
Damage boost is higher of...
Damage boost is lower of...

Also, it could even be argued to have str weapons use one rule and dex another. Maybe strength uses higher of and dex uses lower of or only prof.

Exploring the idea, not planning to house rule, but thoughts driven by the slight "huh" of high art and no prof results.

Any thoughts on proficiency and damage?

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Purely from a conceptual point of view, I might be tempted to say that you can't use weapon special abilities like Finesse if you aren't proficient with the weapon.
Doesn't help with Ranged weapons which default to Dex of course.

Or just accept that as a game concept, Finesse and similar mechanics are going to have weird effects in some edge cases. If the weapon's damage is based on the grace and balance with which it is wielded rather than force and speed, then that weapon will do a lot of damage when wielded by someone with a lot of grace and balance.

- Remember that as an NPC, the character isn't bound by the PC rules and so you could simply not apply their ability modifier to their damage.
- Also remember that the character's actual damage per round should be quite low due to no extra attacks/proficiency. Are you sure that this is going to be an actual problem in-game?

Is there any particular reason that they have no weapon proficiencies, yet still carry and use weapons?

 

[Umbran]

I'm going to go out on a limb, and say that one NPC is not a great reason for a full rules alteration. NPCs and monsters don't have to follow the same rules as characters, so you can just *assign* the NPC a to hit and damage, and be done with it.

If there were some weirdness with PCs that was a problem you needed to fix for your game, then it might be a thought to consider.

Or, another way to put it - what problem is this rules change intended to solve? Only then can we discuss which change will meet the desired outcome.

 

[jmartkdr]

Not really a dex issue, an untrained brute would add strength to damage as well.

I think the lack of to-hit penalty is enough. It matters more for overall effectiveness, and getting a high enough ability score to ignore that is rare enough that it makes for an interesting edge case. I'd believe there's a problem when people start only using weapons they're not proficient with.

 

[Krachek]

You can house rule : half damage if not proficient with a weapon.
But otherwise : what is the problem of dex doing great damage?
Precision and coordination are fundamental in combat and pure muscle are inefficient.
Of course we would have a more realistic system if both star and dex were used,
but DnD is mainly build around single ability to achieve a task.

 

[5ekyu]

Thanks for the responses folks.

One general response then some specific ones.

general "Exploring the idea, not planning to house rule, but thoughts driven by the slight "huh" of high art and no prof results."

As this points out - not house ruling for an NPC or anything like that - jusr thinking about system notions after this one caught me a bit by surprise.

Specifics

last to first

I have zero issue with dex weapons being able to do great damage. Was not an issue of minmax or score butof the line between ability and proficiency and where it should be drawn and overlap. The system seems to stay fairly consistent in using ability modifier on the output side and ability plus proficiency on the success side Foraging is another example. Any changes would apply to more than just weapon damage.

Also...

Opne NPC not enough to warrant rules change and NPCs have their own whatever you want rules not like PCs etc etc... absolutely yes and, well, those seem to be forest for trees points that show how poorly i communicated. The NPC was just a canary pointing out the gas that is "this slightly bugs me here". its not a problem NPC, its a niggling itch that doesn't feel right. So far in campaigns i have played in, the only pc i saw ever grabbing "voluntarily" non-proficient weapons was, well, mine - in cases where it made sense from character POV and the gains (either RP or mechanic or both) made the loss of the prof bonus mostly just a nuisance. But, as it stands, its really quite a less-than-terrible choice in more than a few cases. I think more than a few players more instinctively think or feel like "we cant use non-proficient weapons" and just avoid it as a matter of course or think the penalties are more severe - like they are for armor.

As for the why for this NPC - i will not answer here because i know at least one of my players scans this board now and again.