D&D 5E Another Fighter: the "Heroic" Fighter

[DND_Reborn]

I think that a having it be a 20 (but not an auto success) is a fairly minor distinction. In the majority of cases, due to bounded accuracy, there will be no difference between an auto success and a 20. It doesn't really matter to me which one is used.

Cool. I'll probably limit it to two uses = a 20, and not go to the three uses = auto-success then.

No, I don't agree that backgrounds et al provide sufficient utility for anything beyond a very combat oriented play style. Every class gets backgrounds et al. If that were sufficient, why do so many other classes gain heaps of utility on top of that, in addition to being effective in combat?

Backgrounds can only help, but yes they can help others as well. My point was if you want to improve those pillars choosing appropriate backgrounds WILL help.

Also, I outlined in one of the other threads there are nearly 10 or so feats that will enhance a Fighter's ability in exploration or social pillars.

But, as others have pointed out, people are loathe to give up feats or ASIs for such improvements. I can certainly see such features as appropriate to subclasses of Fighter, but not to the core class, as the point of the class is to fight, not so much to explore or handle social challenges IMO.

So, more of (almost) the same things rather than new add-ons. I like that approach.

I made the most sense to me. After all, Barbarians get more Rage, Monks get more Ki, Rogues get better Sneak Attack and more Expertise...

Although as it was said before, I'd be happier with an indomitable = legendary resistance feature. Perhaps make the 3rd indomitable/long rest feature a 20th capstone? In other words, a 20th level fighter becomes a (full-fledged) legendary creature. Hum, now I'm thinking about a castilian fighter subclass with "lair actions" features...

Others have suggested such as well. I'll wait to see where most opinion lies to see if either is significantly higher than the other side.

 

[Neonchameleon]

(bold added)

That is totally fair and I understand your reproach about it. This is just a difference of views on the class. It is not just Fighters, but Barbarians as well who have less to offer the other pillars, other than perhaps Fast Movement.

Absolutely agreed on barbarians. And I'd be fully in favour of them getting an extra two skills at first level. What makes things especially bad for the fighter is that first they don't even get anything like fast movement, and second most of them have disadvantage on stealth checks.

Anyway, yes, wizards gets the same choices to emphasize other pillars as Fighters (as everyone, really), and can choose spells to help with exploration or social challenges, but then those choices limit combat options.

Except that (a) wizards can change their spell loadout every day and (b) they can have a mixed loadout and spend all their spells on a different pillar each day if they choose.

The larger issue is the loss of niches. WotC designed 5E so everyone can contribute to combat via direct damage, casters via cantrips as well as some spells. So, for our game we capped cantrips at 2 dice of damage and added a recharge mechanic.

There have never been that good niches; right from the earliest days spells like Invisibility and Knock have trampled all over the rogue niche - and there have been classes like the Paladin since the 70s that straddle niches.

We gave fighters 1 more skill already, so I don't see any issue with that. I think also giving fighters an artisan's tool proficiency (to represent a background occupation?) or for use in vehicles, etc. would help some.

Definitely.

That is supposed to be one of the uses for Action Surge. It would also step on the toes of Rogues a bit by competing with their Cunning Action dashing. Also, why should Fighters be able to Dash as a bonus action when Barbarians and Rangers, who I see generally depicted as more "fast moving" can't?

It's a very steep cost for action surge. And barbarians are generally faster.

 

[DND_Reborn]

What makes things especially bad for the fighter is that first they don't even get anything like fast movement, and second most of them have disadvantage on stealth checks.

I agree, but if that is the prerogative of other classes, why should the fighter get things like that?

IME the only fighters with disadvantage on stealth is the ones in heavy armor, which makes sense and why should they not have it? It is a small, although significant in its way, price to pay for the AC you are getting, isn't it?

Except that (a) wizards can change their spell loadout every day and (b) they can have a mixed loadout and spend all their spells on a different pillar each day if they choose.

Which isn't an issue with the fighter, but with the wizard IMO, and can be handled in numerous ways. WotC has decided to be "super nice" to casters in general with a lot of the changes to casting since AD&D. I'll save that for a different thread/conversation.

There have never been that good niches; right from the earliest days spells like Invisibility and Knock have trampled all over the rogue niche - and there have been classes like the Paladin since the 70s that straddle niches.

We can disagree on that, which is fine. Yes, certain spells solve issues which for other classes features would handle. If you don't like the term niche, than role might be better? Anyway, when spells are used they are quick solutions, but frankly IME are not always available unless you plan to keep them handy all the time. But if you have a rogue, why would you have Knock? Aren't there other roles your magic could fulfill that would be more beneficial? If you take the team out of D&D and just look at the individual, classes as a whole suffer in one manner or another IMO and if you try to make it so every class can handle every situation you might as well get rid of classes and use a different system for character generation.

And while Paladins straddled niches, they were very hard to get unless you rolled dozens of times or just picked your ability scores, and had a lot of restrictions which if properly enforced made a big difference IME.

It's a very steep cost for action surge. And barbarians are generally faster.

Yes, it is, but action surge can do a lot of other things, which barbarians don't get that benefit from Fast Movement.

But, I am going to spend some time working on a couple subclasses to address the exploration and social pillars. Perhaps when I am done with a draft of those there might be something that would appeal to want?

While I am doing that, I'll try to keep in mind the points you made upthread and thanks!

 

[Fanaelialae]

This conversation gave me an idea.

What if the fighting styles also had unique utility effects?

For example, in addition to the +1 AC granted by Defense, maybe it also negates the stealth penalty for wearing armor. Your fighter has trained so long in armor that it's basically a second skin to him.

Unfortunately, I don't have any suggestions for the other styles at the moment. Just a thought.

 

[DND_Reborn]

This conversation gave me an idea.

What if the fighting styles also had unique utility effects?

For example, in addition to the +1 AC granted by Defense, maybe it also negates the stealth penalty for wearing armor. Your fighter has trained so long in armor that it's basically a second skin to him.

Unfortunately, I don't have any suggestions for the other styles at the moment. Just a thought.

Well, I was going to not go to this point since it is part of our current 5E mod... but since you brought it up you can look over these and let me know what you think. They are still in the play-testing stage.

Instead of learning a new fighting style, you can improve one you already know. Some of the benefits won't translate exactly since they use other rules from the mod.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I agree, but if that is the prerogative of other classes, why should the fighter get things like that?

Because the fighter is incredibly fit and meant to be fast moving. As per previous discussions I don't think that niche protection is in and of itself worth much. If a fighter and a rogue look the same things have gone wrong.

IME the only fighters with disadvantage on stealth is the ones in heavy armor, which makes sense and why should they not have it? It is a small, although significant in its way, price to pay for the AC you are getting, isn't it?

AC is only useful in combat. That their equipment gives them disadvantage on stealth is a penalty almost uniquely paid by the fighter and the paladin (and some clerics) and makes the fighter the single least useful out of combat class; they have the joint fewest skills, have literally no additional out of combat abilities and, unlike other classes, have their normal equipment giving them disadvantage on a skill.

It's adding insult to injury and means that the fighter is in joint 12th place out of 13 for out of combat usefulness even in an anti-magic field.

Which isn't an issue with the fighter, but with the wizard IMO, and can be handled in numerous ways. WotC has decided to be "super nice" to casters in general with a lot of the changes to casting since AD&D. I'll save that for a different thread/conversation.

Out of 13 classes in 5e 9 are casters. All these caster classes can carry mixed loadouts. And all these caster classes have at least as many skills as a fighter. If something's either an issue with two classes (fighter and barbarian) or nine (all casters) then it's the two that have the problem.

We can disagree on that, which is fine. Yes, certain spells solve issues which for other classes features would handle. If you don't like the term niche, than role might be better?

Again, I don't think that this is a good thing because it inhibits RP for me. Under pressure everyone pitches in and should be able to learn. The sort of niche protection you seem to want I'd say undermines the range of balanced characters possible.

Anyway, when spells are used they are quick solutions, but frankly IME are not always available unless you plan to keep them handy all the time. But if you have a rogue, why would you have Knock?

Off the top of my head:

1. We've either run into Arcane Lock or expect to; I can knock doors open the rogue simply can't. The problem is with the game
2. Is our party stable to the point we can 100% guarantee having a rogue?
3. As a backup for when the rogue fails
4. Is my character always working with the party anyway?
5. (3.5 answer) Because I don't just have a spellbook, I have a loose leaf binder full of utility spells.

I could probably continue.

Aren't there other roles your magic could fulfill that would be more beneficial?

Sure. I could bring invisibility...

Being serious possibly. And possibly not. Are arcane locks showing up? Is the rogue always showing up?

While I am doing that, I'll try to keep in mind the points you made upthread and thanks!

No problem

 

[Fanaelialae]

Well, I was going to not go to this point since it is part of our current 5E mod... but since you brought it up you can look over these and let me know what you think. They are still in the play-testing stage.

Instead of learning a new fighting style, you can improve one you already know. Some of the benefits won't translate exactly since they use other rules from the mod.

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I don't have time to thoroughly read through it right now, but I really like it conceptually! A little more utility might be nice (IMO) but giving fighters higher level options that are actually better is definitely a move in the right direction as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Guest 7034872]

While I think capstones are neat and all - they're mostly flavor text because so few campaigns reach anywhere near that level.

I much prefer fun abilities MUCH earlier so players can actually experience the fun of using them and want to continue.

I definitely agree with this. In all the campaigns I've been in since getting back into this in 2018, not one has taken players beyond L10 and the two that got right up to L10 did so by letting us level up awfully fast. For good or for ill, the fun skills, spells, and abilities of these campaigns have to be introduced before ~L7-8 or else most players will never even see them.

 

[Fanaelialae]

I definitely agree with this. In all the campaigns I've been in since getting back into this in 2018, not one has taken players beyond L10 and the two that got right up to L10 did so by letting us level up awfully fast. For good or for ill, the fun skills, spells, and abilities of these campaigns have to be introduced before ~L7-8 or else most players will never even see them.

Having played in numerous high level campaigns, I also agree. Odds are that, even if you make it to capstone level, you're only likely to play a tiny fraction of the campaign at that level.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Having played in numerous high level campaigns, I also agree. Odds are that, even if you make it to capstone level, you're only likely to play a tiny fraction of the campaign at that level.

I definitely agree with this. In all the campaigns I've been in since getting back into this in 2018, not one has taken players beyond L10 and the two that got right up to L10 did so by letting us level up awfully fast. For good or for ill, the fun skills, spells, and abilities of these campaigns have to be introduced before ~L7-8 or else most players will never even see them.

If either of you are interested, I can send you my Faster Features Variant, which grants all features by level 15. It allows you to get capstone features and actually have a few levels to enjoy them.