Another Immortals Handbook thread

[CRGreathouse]

Any thoughts?

I'd just leave it exactly as-is.

* The system woprks just fine now.
* This would take extra time, and we don't want to wait.
* Fewer virtual size categories are preferable to more (in complexity terms).
* I don't really like the idea of expanding beyond its current position the proliferation of comic-book physics like this.

 

[CR2000]

Upper Krust, anything else on apotheosis?

 

[Aaron L]

Gotta love U_K

 

[Anabstercorian]

Hey Anabstercorian mate!



I know.

How many 'g's act in conjunction with the Orichalcum Golem(s)?

I already told you, silly.

10000g's: ~5.5m from golem
1000g's: ~17.5m from golem
100g's: ~55m from golem
10g's: ~173.2m from golem
1g: ~548m from golem
0.1g: ~1732.5m from golem

Basically, you're going to get pretty dramatic effects pretty quickly, but you're not going to face crushing effects until you get a lot closer. A continuous bull-rush effect might be more appropriate than a damaging effect, at least at longer distances.

 

[Alzrius]

But I am now starting to think that my initial figures were correct after all, and any problems caused by it are really just down to the fact that D&D allows humans to exceed world record lifting with Str 23.

Let's not forget that Virtual Size Categories are also judges by the size of the creature, not the race. Natural strength (ability score rolled + racial adjustments + ability increases by level) may be only 23 for humans, but orcs, another Medium-sized race, can get up to 27 (+4 racial adjustment to strength). Given that, I'd say the way it is now is fine.

As an aside, U_K, I noticed the stats you'd posted for the Weapons from FFVII over on your webpage. They seem great (though I wonder if they have enough SLA's), except their hit dice seem rather low. The Tarrasque has almost twice their hit dice, and the titan and the solar, both of whom have CR's more than 10 less than the weapons, have only a few hit dice less.

I'd personally recommend doubling their hit dice. That may drive the CR up by maybe 5 or so (I'm guessing), but it'd be more in line with how they seemed to be unkillable monstrosities in the game. It also seems odd that the Diamond Weapon has acid immunity and acid resistance 25.

Oh, and that quote that of yours that Aaron mentioned...beyond kick ass. (I'd ask what changes to the d20 system you think would need to be made to play an honest game of DB/Z/GT d20, since I think it'd require more than just shoveling the levels on by the scores, but I don't want to hijack the thread).

 

[Anabstercorian]

You know, looking over the weapons, I once again saw a failure to mention durations of many of their abilities. I think this is a problem for you.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Heya mate!

I'd just leave it exactly as-is.

* The system woprks just fine now.
* This would take extra time, and we don't want to wait.
* Fewer virtual size categories are preferable to more (in complexity terms).
* I don't really like the idea of expanding beyond its current position the proliferation of comic-book physics like this.

I would prefer things to be right for the official release. The changes would only take a few hours, the art is the real hold up. I agree simplicity is better, but not in tandem with flawed rules.

With regards the comic book physics, I simply look at it as physics. D&D, as I have shown before, uses a low physical factor for its rules - so it is inherantly comic book already.

Also this could go a touch further to alleviate any discrepancies between warriors and spellcasters at epic levels.

Thanks for your help mate, I guess I am just trying to reason this in my own head.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey CR2000!

Upper Krust, anything else on apotheosis?

In between trying to finish the Bestiary art I have been tweaking and fixing the various powers and abilities to get them perfect, as well as starting work on the (13) deity examples. I suppose I should have asked was there any deities people would like to see? Obviously I have the Time Lord and the one above time lord already sorted. The 9 immortals will be one of each alignment, then you have the two undergods (Disciple and Prophet).

I have my initial list around here somewhere, but off the top of my head it was something like Achilles, Baba Yaga, Lucifer, Shang-Ti, Surtur, Algol, Metatron (obviously thats missing a few, and I am not going to name the Time Lords either at this stage). Although I probably should have put Algol (ie. Azathoth) in the Bestiary in a grouping on Pseudonaturals.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Anabstercorian mate!

I already told you, silly.

10000g's: ~5.5m from golem
1000g's: ~17.5m from golem
100g's: ~55m from golem
10g's: ~173.2m from golem
1g: ~548m from golem
0.1g: ~1732.5m from golem

Read before you post. Thats for the Neutronium Golem. I asked you about the Orichalcum Golem. Now who's silly.

Basically, you're going to get pretty dramatic effects pretty quickly, but you're not going to face crushing effects until you get a lot closer. A continuous bull-rush effect might be more appropriate than a damaging effect, at least at longer distances.

I have already changed how it works.

By the way the Neutronium Golem is the only monster whose damage significantly changes from the recent Virtual Size Category revelation. It becomes a 'tad' more powerful.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Aaaaaargh! Just lost this whole post! Here goes again.

Let's not forget that Virtual Size Categories are also judges by the size of the creature, not the race. Natural strength (ability score rolled + racial adjustments + ability increases by level) may be only 23 for humans, but orcs, another Medium-sized race, can get up to 27 (+4 racial adjustment to strength). Given that, I'd say the way it is now is fine.

In general Orcs would be heavier than humans.

As an aside, U_K, I noticed the stats you'd posted for the Weapons from FFVII over on your webpage. They seem great (though I wonder if they have enough SLA's),

I did cut a few at the last minute. Also I don't think the Omega Weapon has all its feats.

except their hit dice seem rather low.

I measured them and contrasted their images against the characters, then worked out their Hit Dice based on that. As elementals they have natural physiognomies.

The Tarrasque has almost twice their hit dice,

Its almost twice as big.

and the titan and the solar,

Both outsiders with unnatural physiognomies.

both of whom have CR's more than 10 less than the weapons, have only a few hit dice less.

Are those the 'official' CRs you are talking about?

I'd personally recommend doubling their hit dice.

You can always advance them.

That may drive the CR up by maybe 5 or so (I'm guessing), but it'd be more in line with how they seemed to be unkillable monstrosities in the game.

Well I suppose that depends on whose trying to kill them. If you are non-epic then they are virtually unkillable. They are meant to be the Avatars of mother nature. Its difficult to contrast the power of Final Fantasy characters and D&D characters, however I certainly don't believe its 1:1 with regard levels, nor even 1:2 (especially not when I execute order 666 and bump up the magic).

It also seems odd that the Diamond Weapon has acid immunity and acid resistance 25.

Ooops!

Oh, and that quote that of yours that Aaron mentioned...beyond kick ass.

I appreciate the love dude!

(I'd ask what changes to the d20 system you think would need to be made to play an honest game of DB/Z/GT d20, since I think it'd require more than just shoveling the levels on by the scores, but I don't want to hijack the thread).

I think when you have the IH you will be able to play such games effortlessly. I think a lot of it is that people don't fully grasp the significance of D&Ds low physical factor and when thats explained a lot of the pieces will fall into place.

Also I have a lot of monk type epic feats that probably should have been in the ELH. I mean I know Crouching Tiger inspired some of the ELH designers, but I have been watching kung fu, samurai and wuxia movies for as long as I have been playing D&D, maybe even before that...not to mention I also watch DBZ.

At this point the only class I'm not massively expanding is the Bard. They added a lot of epic feats in the ELH specifically targeting the Bard and its been tricky coming up with new epic bard feats and divine abilities. I have a few, but not as many as I had hoped for. I probably need to do some brainstorming and start thinking outside the box with them....although, that said, I just had a few good ideas for Bards...