Another sacred cow. Autohit on 20. Keep or Slay?

[RigaMortus2]

a natural 1 gives the opponent you meant to hit an AoO against you because you left yourself open.

I like this one. I assume it works when the DM rolls a nat 1 for the enemies too, right? Might have to bring this one up to the DM...

We use a fumble check rule. Roll a nat 1, make a Dex check vs DC 10, fail that and you dropped your weapon/broke your bow string/etc.

 

[RigaMortus2]

On Skill checks there was no automatic success on a 20, nor failure on a 1. That only applied to attacks.
I expect the same will remain in 4E

Just wanted to add, there is an auto crit/failure for Saving Throws as well.

 

[Asmor]

Keep.

Not a great rule for simulationists, but an integral rule for gamists. There must always be a chance of success, and there must always be a chance of failure... else why roll the die at all?

 

[TwinBahamut]

I don't like either rule. Both seem unnecessary, and I don't like the unusual amount of randomness the add to situations. In actual gameplay, if you would not hit with a 20 or would hit even on a 1, there is something seriously wrong with the encounter. Either the automiss and autohit are adding artificial (but minor) difficulty or artificial (but minor) chances of success, or they do nothing at all. The effect is negligible either way.

 

[DarkKestral]

Actually, from what I can tell, mathematically, the old system was slightly less than fair. I have a feeling the new system is actually slightly LESS fair than that.

So I'd not object to removing the '1 is always a miss' rule. However, I'm not objecting to removing the '20 is a crit, if you confirm it with another hit' rule because it removes SOME of the unfairness of the roll.

 

[Stormtower]

Gotta keep both. The up-and-down fortune of rolling natural 1's and natural 20's is one of the most iconic parts of D&D. There should almost always be a chance of failure when the pressure's on (natural 1) and an equal chance of success despite overwhelming odds against it (natural 20).

 

[Dragonblade]

I like this one. I assume it works when the DM rolls a nat 1 for the enemies too, right? Might have to bring this one up to the DM...

We use a fumble check rule. Roll a nat 1, make a Dex check vs DC 10, fail that and you dropped your weapon/broke your bow string/etc.

It does indeed work both ways. It adds a grittiness to combat because players make more rolls and are thus more likely to roll 1s and get smacked. Likewise, it encouraged movement a bit more and less toe to toe slugfests at higher levels. If you had 4 attacks in a round and the last one was likely to miss anyway, was it worth you to risk leaving yourself open and potentially getting smacked back if you rolled that 1?

We implemented this originally because our DM felt that if nat 20s were always crits there should be a corresponding drawback to rolling a 1. We originally had a fumble rule but it became really annoying and all the players hated it. So we came up with this instead.

My current group (different DM and players) doesn't use these house rules. They run the game pretty much as is right out of the 3.5 rule books. But I may bring back the natural 1 roll in 4e. I want to play the system as is first and house rule it after I get a feel for how my changes might impact things.

 

[frankthedm]

I don't like either rule. Both seem unnecessary, and I don't like the unusual amount of randomness the add to situations. In actual gameplay, if you would not hit with a 20 or would hit even on a 1, there is something seriously wrong with the encounter. Either the automiss and autohit are adding artificial (but minor) difficulty or artificial (but minor) chances of success, or they do nothing at all. The effect is negligible either way.

Not negligible at all. PCs have often encounter weaker monsters in significant numbers. Those Monsters are generally worth some XP and thus need to provide some challenge. Auto hit on a 20 ensures this.

Often times PCs and NPC can crank their AC a fair amount, Auto hit ensures that turtling is not the best option..

Auto miss on a one means a character reduced to low HP is not autodead the moment the next attack is declared.

 

[NewfieDave]

Additionally my group used to play with a couple of interesting house rules that I think they should add to 4e. Natural 20s are auto-crits (this one they did add to 4e) and a natural 1 gives the opponent you meant to hit an AoO against you because you left yourself open.

Wow, that's exactly how my group has house ruled critical misses. It works well, and many tough fights have been won on a "Hail Mary" AoO after the BBEG rolled a crit miss.

 

[frankthedm]

Wow, that's exactly how my group has house ruled critical misses. It works well, and many tough fights have been won on a "Hail Mary" AoO after the BBEG rolled a crit miss.

Thats the 'fumble' I prefer myself.

Melee: draw AoO from foe you attacked.
Ranged: Your shot caused an ally adjacent to the target to draw an AoO.

As an added benefit, this rewards those who bring missle weapons, something I have seen some PCs try to avoid at all costs.